2 Operating Systems after unconventional wipe & re install

User avatar
Doc.AElstein
BronzeLounger
Posts: 1499
Joined: 28 Feb 2015, 13:11
Location: Hof, Bayern, Germany

2 Operating Systems after unconventional wipe & re install

Post by Doc.AElstein »

Since yesterday I have a “new” computer with 2 operating systems . It wasn’t planned, it came about by accident. But it could give me an extra tool in a solving another current problems of mine ( http://www.eileenslounge.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=31600" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )

I have some questions a bit further below.
You might prefer to skip this next background summary , but I add it just in case how it came about is relevant or of interest……

Background: (unconventional wipe & re install )
Some time ago, I inherited a cobbled together computer, originally a Dell , but not much like in its original condition , from my Father in law.
A then time, neighbour of my father in law, a very talented computer expert, but also very dubious character , built it for him.
( Asking either of those two people about the computer now, is no longer an option. )
It had Windows 7 operating system 64 Bit professional on the C: drive when I was given it. ( The C drive is untypical small).
I used the computer initially, but as time went on the C drive kept filling up , despite me continually de installing and deleting almost everything on it. ( The bar on C: Drive was always showing red: https://imgur.com/f3DFu8o" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )
( A bag came with the computer when I inherited it. Amongst other things was an official looking Microsoft disk…
“ Windows 7 Upgrade “”WindowsAnytime”” Windows 7 Home Premium 32-Bit-Software “
Some time ago I tried to do things with that disk based on many internet searches, forum suggestions etc.. … But I could never do anything with it. Usually I got some message saying my computer was already at a higher level than that upgrade would bring me to ..)

On and off for about a year, I spent many hours / days on the internet and in a few forums and tried, I think, every published solution to cure the problem of the C drive filling up. Eventually it got so full, it was no longer usable. I couldn’t even delete the last few ( very small ) things that were on it as it always errorod saying that it had no space to work in.
Yesterday my wife and I decide to have a bit of fun and decided soon to smash the computer to pieces with a big axe and bury it in the garden.
As we now had nothing to loose we experimented wildly pulling the plug randomly , plugging it back in , hitting every F key as it powered up and wildly changing things in the DOS BIOS wot ever ….
This went on for several hours with a bottle or two of good wine to inspire. Occasionally we put discs in the computer, occasionally not, whilst experimenting.
I have no idea how , but suddenly the 32-Bit disk which was currently in the computer at that time burst into life, and went through an easy to follow operating system instillation. For no special reason I chose to install it on the F: drive instead of the offered and usually used C: drive.
At the end, it asked for the 25 character key. I found such a 25 character key written on a scrap of paper in the bag , (which accompanied the computer when I got it ), and typed it in. The computer restarted and I appeared to have a new computer running from the F: drive. It seems to work great, with just the small inconvenience that some Keys are on a different place on the keyboard to where they are indicated as being.
If I now left click Microsoft Start and the right click on Computer and select Properties, then I see this
1 2 3 Alan 32 Bit F drive.JPG : https://imgur.com/y85gfzd" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Alan 32 Bit F drive.JPG : https://imgur.com/1Fyil69" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We opened a bottle of champagne and experimented further,
My wife suggested doing this on the C drive:
Format C Drive.JPG : https://imgur.com/ocvSnxG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
( At that time the bar on C: Drive was still showing red as it had done for the last year )
I told her not to do that , as I used to “format the C drive” about 25 years ago and a work mate of mine always got very upset , and started feeding disks into the computer to repair it…
My wife laughed at me, and did it anyway. It wiped the C: clean in less than a second – I had been trying to do that for over a year. ( It did not give any warning – it just did it , and instantly the C: drive showed that it was empty )
:scratch: ... I thought ...
I remembered I had a ISO disk made from an unsuccessful attempt some time ago at re instillation from here…. http://www.eileenslounge.com/viewtopic. ... 35#p200050" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I also had a look at a borrowed Win 7 Pro 64Bit disk from a local Dealer who gave up trying to install Win 7 for me… They looked the same.
I put mine in and we had fun again for a few hours. After a while the disk sprung into life and did an operating system install . I chose to put it on the C drive this time. At the end it asked for a 25 character key. I bought one for 2 Euros over the internet ( ebay ) and typed it in.
I now have a second installation . This time Win 7 64 Bit Professional . It works perfectly , and the C drive is looking “normal” that is to say, no longer in the red :-) ( Unfortunately I still don’t know how to do it or how we did anything. But never mind. :-) )
Petra Win 7 Prof 64Bit.PNG : https://imgur.com/FdB5ODL" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When I restart the computer it asks me if I want Windows 7 or Windows 7 – ( I have two to chose from. The first gets me at the C drive 64Bt and the second gets me at the F drive 32 Bit.
_.___________________________________________________

So..
Questions..
I now have a “new” self made computer. It has
on the F: drive Windows 7 Home premium 32Bit
on the C: drive Windows 7 Professional 64Bit.
AlanPetraKlaus 15Jan 2019.JPG : https://imgur.com/Y2K1VkT" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
AlanPetraKlaus 15Jan 2019.JPG
At the moment it has very little else on it..

Q.1 Virus protection
I have installed Microsoft Security Essentials on the F Drive. Will that “protect the computer”.? Or should I install it on the C drive also?

Q. 2 Programs like Microsoft Office
Do I have to install these on all the drives that I want to use it on. Or can I install on one drive and use it from both?
My initial experiments suggest that I do….

Q. 3 Updates
I would like to use my “new” computer for some current investigations concerning the effect of Updates on some programs ( http://www.eileenslounge.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=31600" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). Would an update immediately apply to and have effect on both operating systems, or do they apply only to the operating system used to download them.

Q. 4 Any general comments or Warnings..
Has anyone got any general comments on, or warnings about any problems they know about, when having two Operating Systems on one computer.

Thanks

Alan
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
I am having difficulty logging in with this account just now.
You can find me at DocAElstein also

User avatar
Argus
GoldLounger
Posts: 3081
Joined: 24 Jan 2010, 19:07

Re: 2 Operating Systems after unconventional wipe & re insta

Post by Argus »

To be honest, are these serious questions (given what the computer just went through)?

Also
Doc.AElstein wrote:My wife laughed at me, and did it anyway. It wiped the C: clean in less than a second – I had been trying to do that for over a year. ( It did not give any warning – it just did it , and instantly the C: drive showed that it was empty )
:scratch: ... I thought ...
Well, if you are logged in on another OS, you can do whatever ...
Byelingual    When you speak two languages but start losing vocabulary in both of them.

User avatar
Jay Freedman
Microsoft MVP
Posts: 1320
Joined: 24 May 2013, 15:33
Location: Warminster, PA

Re: 2 Operating Systems after unconventional wipe & re insta

Post by Jay Freedman »

Alan, what you now have is essentially two (almost*) separate computers. This is what's called a "dual booting" setup.

Because only one of the operating systems can run at any time, you choose which one to use through the boot menu. Because they are separate, nearly all software (Office, antivirus, etc.) must be installed separately in each operating system. That includes any program that uses the Windows registry for its operation -- you have two registries, one for each OS, and only the one belonging to the booted OS is active. Programs that don't use the registry (e.g., "portable" software) just need to be placed on one drive and run from there.

One other difference: The 32-bit Windows can't run 64-bit programs. However, the 64-bit Windows can run both 64-bit and 32-bit programs. Data files written by 64-bit programs may or may not be readable by 32-bit programs.

*"Almost" separate computers, because each OS can see and modify all of the drives. That's how your wife was able to format C: while running the OS from F:.

User avatar
viking33
PlatinumLounger
Posts: 5685
Joined: 24 Jan 2010, 19:16
Location: Cape Cod, Massachusetts,USA

Re: 2 Operating Systems after unconventional wipe & re insta

Post by viking33 »

Took me a while to even read your post but I agree with Jay that some how you ended up with a Dual boot machine. ( one legal the other a little shady )
Dual Booting is a great way to have things both ways. I have done this for quite some time as I boot to either Windows 7 OR Windows 10. I did even Triple Boot to include Windows Vista. All this was done legitimately and no product keys were bought on eBay but from Microsoft.
Sermon ended.
I do think that your original problem was that the C drive was too small and did not have enough room to do much at all, including updating. A disk partition manager would probably have straightened this out but that's all "water over the dam" now.
BOB
:massachusetts: :usa:
______________________________________

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

User avatar
Doc.AElstein
BronzeLounger
Posts: 1499
Joined: 28 Feb 2015, 13:11
Location: Hof, Bayern, Germany

Re: 2 Operating Systems after unconventional wipe & re insta

Post by Doc.AElstein »

Argus wrote:...are these serious questions (given what the computer just went through)
Hi Angus,
I can understand your reaction. That’s why I attempted to give some clarity/ justification / background to the story, which inevitably makes it a bit hard to wade through. So thanks for taking the time to read it.
The fact is, .. this computer had resisted all known and carefully planned out , ( and carefully documented ) , attempts to set it in order for over a year. It had taken up far too much of mine and others time. And cost.
Early Monday morning we sat by it and made very sure it heard our plan to smash it to pieces with a large Axe. We meant it, and it knew it. I was looking forward to doing it, “come on punk, make my day” , I was thinking.. It was life or death for that computer, and considering the (justified in my opinion ) planned action, it had it very light , IMO.
My only regret is that I did not do my usual meticulous documenting as I almost always do when I do anything like this. But we were working at an amazing pace in a crazed frenzy. If I had been taking notes it would have taken a month.

I have some very basic knowledge of the “ Bios stuff “, (as I carefully used that and became familiar with it on another cobbled together Win 7 ( 64 bit professional ) computer, as I learnt to restore one of my computers from a recovery disk.. ( http://eileenslounge.com/viewtopic.php? ... 18#p221622" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). )
But, the Bios , ( or whatever it was that came up when I interrupted the start on the computer on Monday) , I could not relate at all to anything on that computer, so it was just random trial and error.

Considering the history of this particular computer, I think he had it easy. He was, in my opinion, correctly sentenced to death. I had to take extreme measures to get the reprieve through. Knowing all that me and others had tried with this computer, it is difficult to imagine that any carefully thought out logical approach would have worked
I may now have unexpectedly a very helpful tool to help solve my other update / ActiveX issue.
Instead of smashed up buried electro rubbish, I now have, what by my standards is a fairly up to date operating system, with no updates. I realise that is a slight contradiction , but I purposely took every option in any install process not to allow updates. I already checked, and ActiveX controls embedded in a worksheet in Excel 2003 are working on “both” my “ new Win 7’s “ . I now have achieved a working case for XP , Vista , and two Win 7 . With 12 non working cases , this will help narrow down, hopefully, what update combinations are doing what

Thks for the reply, Angus.
_._____________________________________

Hi Jay,..
My gut feeling was that I had something close to 2 computers, so thanks for confirming that. It is good to know. I don’t like to move on until someone who knows what they are talking about confirms what I might think..

I am not quite sure what you are referring to by portable software. That sounds like anything I might install.
I notice that by any install I can change the default path offered ( which is almost always C:\ lkddkd \asjjfkasj …) to something like G:\ ashf \ wqz98as . Up until now that has always worked ( I have not tried that with Office yet ) . As I understood ( or guessed ) it, if I install using an operating system, then something must go on the same drive as that operating system, but I can choose to have some parts of it on a separate drive? But that is just a guess from me.

It sounds that it could be useful having the two OS on the same .. thing , that is to say almost two computers sharing some of the drives.
For example, it allows me to wipe one operating system clean very easily. If I could figure out how I actually installed the C: drive Windows 7 Professional 64Bit , then I may have achieved a year long ambition of mine to be able to wipe a computer clean and do a fresh re-install. This is something that, despite all the opinions to the contrary, is actually in the practice, quite an unknown/ impossible thing, at least in Germany with newish computers… .But considering the efforts and extreme lengths that brought me to the current point, I think I will resist the temptation, at least for a while to attempt to wipe the C: clean and re install again the C: drive Windows 7 Professional 64Bit.
I don’t want to risk destroying what I have achieved currently. Not yet anyway.

It could be useful, possibly, if I never use the computer on the Internet when using the F: drive Windows 7 Home premium 32Bit. I would also use the F: and / or other drives as much as possible for storage, and keep the C: drive Windows 7 Professional 64Bit. as my main internet working software with the minimum of software on it and routinely wipe it clean and start with a fresh install of that Windows 7 Professional 64Bit OS.

I am slightly curious about the need to have two sets of anti virus software. I am puzzled because sometimes I have had no paint drying anywhere, so I watched parts of full run of Microsoft Security Essentials instead. I thought I noticed it going through all files everywhere including all drives, even USB sticks connected to the computer. ??
Possibly that function would not require two instillations of virus protection software. ??
Possibly there is an additional function in the virus protection software, such as real time protection?, if so, requiring an instillation in the “active” operating system?,
If that is the case, then possibly I could choose to do without that, as I would be regularly wiping my computer, that is to say the “ C: drive Windows 7 Professional 64Bit computer

Thnks again for all the useful info.
Alan
_.___________________________________________
Hi Bob,
Sorry about the long post. It is difficult always to get enough across to explain without putting off anyone reading… We all need more time… ( hence my re birth* ;) )
It certainly sounds that by accident I have hit on a useful thing with my “two almost new computers”
Regarding the too small C: and things like disk partition and similar. I probably did not try everything, but I am sure I came close to trying everything. Nothing worked in this case. When I first got the computer it was not in the red. Mostly I removed more than I installed. I used C Clean, other similar software, and regularly did some other things known to clean things. Initially they had some effect. As time went on they became less and less effective. At the end I had stripped virtually everything , but it kept filling up. In the end it seemed to be somehow squashed in the corner and had no place to move or do anything.
A few times I meticulously added the size of things in folders and compared that to the folder size. Often the numbers did not add up: on the C: drive in particular. I still have all the records…. But as you say, that's all "water over the dam" now

( By the way, The ebay licence was something to do quickly. I agree with paying normally usually. For example, I doubt a lot of people in my position would have as many legitimate Office instillation disks and Licences as I have. (. I admit that recently I bought used Excel 2003 disks from ebay. But my XL 2007 and 2010 were bought quite expensively at local computer dealers some years ago. ) )

Thanks Bob
Ludwig*
I am having difficulty logging in with this account just now.
You can find me at DocAElstein also

User avatar
Jay Freedman
Microsoft MVP
Posts: 1320
Joined: 24 May 2013, 15:33
Location: Warminster, PA

Re: 2 Operating Systems after unconventional wipe & re insta

Post by Jay Freedman »

Hi Alan,
Portable software is a type of program that doesn't need installation, doesn't use the Windows registry for anything, and doesn't leave any parts of itself on the computer when you exit the program. Most users of portable software store the programs on a USB memory stick (also called a thumb drive or pen drive) that can be plugged into any PC. But they can be stored on your hard drive and used whenever you want them.

Almost all portable programs are open-source and free for personal use. A valuable source is at https://portableapps.com/, and there are others such as https://pendriveapps.com/.

About installation locations: Yes, most program installers let you change the program's path to whatever you want, but they'll always want some things on the system drive: registry entries (tens or hundreds of them), common DLLs, configuration data, etc. If you install a program only on one OS, and then switch to the other OS, the program may fail to start or may ask you to do the configuration all over again. The exception is the portable software, which just runs from either OS with no problems.

About antivirus: In my opinion, an antivirus program that doesn't do real-time protection isn't worth much. Once a virus has installed itself, cleaning up afterward is ten times as much trouble, even if you're prepared to wipe the drive and reinstall the OS. You want the AV program to run in whatever OS is currently active, always. That means two installations, one in each OS.

User avatar
StuartR
Administrator
Posts: 12652
Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 15:49
Location: London, Europe

Re: 2 Operating Systems after unconventional wipe & re insta

Post by StuartR »

Jay,
Some of us install two different anti-virus programmes, you should only configure one of them to do real-time protection. The other can run daily or weekly scans.
StuartR


User avatar
Jay Freedman
Microsoft MVP
Posts: 1320
Joined: 24 May 2013, 15:33
Location: Warminster, PA

Re: 2 Operating Systems after unconventional wipe & re insta

Post by Jay Freedman »

StuartR wrote:Jay,
Some of us install two different anti-virus programmes, you should only configure one of them to do real-time protection. The other can run daily or weekly scans.
Agreed. For example, my desktop runs ESET antivirus as real-time protection, and MalwareBytes as a scheduled (and sometimes manual) scan.

Also notable is that Windows knows when a third-party AV is active, and it shuts down Windows Defender's real-time activity to prevent interference (you can also set Defender to do scheduled scans). I don't recall now whether that's applicable to Windows 7 and whatever Microsoft called its AV in that version.

User avatar
Doc.AElstein
BronzeLounger
Posts: 1499
Joined: 28 Feb 2015, 13:11
Location: Hof, Bayern, Germany

Re: 2 Operating Systems after unconventional wipe & re insta

Post by Doc.AElstein »

@ Jay
Hi Jay,
Thanks.
About portable software
I don’t think I have ever used any portable software, so that was a new one on me.

About installation locations
It sounds like I guessed that approximately correct.
I wonder what would happen if I did this:
Installed separately the same Microsoft Office using both the F: drive Windows 7 Home premium 32Bit computer and the C: drive Windows 7 Professional 64Bit computer. So that would mean that both “computers” got on each operating system drive the necessary things that you mentioned.
But I could choose exactly the same place for where the other stuff goes during both insulations. Then they might share the other stuff from there…
I think I can “legally do that”, at least with my Office 2010, as I have spare licenses on multi licence disks. As I would then use the same disk for both instillation , then, other than 32 / 64 Bit issues, the installed other stuff would be the same, possibly, in both instillations.
( It would be interesting to know, just out of curiosity, if in that case whether I am effectively using something like one and a half licences rather than 2 in such a case.. )
That would be interesting to try out.. I did, in fact, do something along those lines once with a video converter ( https://eileenslounge.com/viewtopic.php ... 56#p221684" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ):-
In that case, I had found that the current version was not as good as a previous version. (The previous version was no longer available). I had the old version on another computer, but wanted that old version also on a new computer. So I installed the new version on the new computer but then copied those other files from the old computer and replaced the corresponding files on the new computer with those. It worked: the new installed version then worked like the old version

Actually, on second thoughts, I think I will leave that experiment for now as I might get in a muddle just now. But I might do it some time in the future for curiosity sake.. –
For now I have just 2 ( full ) independent Office 2003 ( separate licences ) on both the F: drive Windows 7 Home premium 32Bit computer and the C: drive Windows 7 Professional 64Bit computer. That suits me better for my current investigations. Later I will try the “shared files” experiment with Office 2010 .

About antivirus:
I will re think this issue following yours and Stuart’s comments on this. Currently I just have Microsoft Security Essentials installed on the F: drive Windows 7 Home premium 32Bit computer . I will leave it like that, just for now.
This is because I am trying to keep the things on the computer to a minimum, especially updates just now, as otherwise it will cloud the issue in the current investigations that I am doing, which is into updates that break things.
It is already annoying me enough:
_ A few times both computers have threatened to give me updaters in a few minutes time, even though in all the instillations I told them not to. So far I have been able to pull the plug in time.
_ Strangely some updates where there from the start.. … ( By the way, one mentions something about Windows defender )…
Initial Updates on F 32Bit,jpg : https://imgur.com/uvgnn9i" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Initial Updates on C 64Bit.jpg : https://imgur.com/AiPFJGj" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
_ The updates seen by different methods strangely do not always tie up

( I may have bitten off more than I can chew with this update issue( https://eileenslounge.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=31600" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). But I will keep at it for a while )

Alan
I am having difficulty logging in with this account just now.
You can find me at DocAElstein also

User avatar
Argus
GoldLounger
Posts: 3081
Joined: 24 Jan 2010, 19:07

Re: 2 Operating Systems after unconventional wipe & re insta

Post by Argus »

Doc.AElstein wrote:The fact is, .. this computer had resisted all known and carefully planned out , ( and carefully documented ) , attempts to set it in order for over a year. It had taken up far too much of mine and others time. And cost.
It's been possible to format a system drive (if that is what one wants to do) booting from install media, or other tools, for a very long time. (I agree with Joe, in the other thread. Then it's a different matter that some computers don’t come with install media, but it can be created, one way or other.)
Byelingual    When you speak two languages but start losing vocabulary in both of them.

User avatar
Doc.AElstein
BronzeLounger
Posts: 1499
Joined: 28 Feb 2015, 13:11
Location: Hof, Bayern, Germany

Re: 2 Operating Systems after unconventional wipe & re insta

Post by Doc.AElstein »

Hi Angus, thanks for the reply.
I don’t doubt for one minute what you or Joe say. Mainly because I am sure you know what you are talking about. But also because I am finally beginning to have success now at doing these things myself.
Possibly some time in the future, I will not only be confident to do “wipe cleans / reinstallations with this “new double booted computers” , but can also do similar “wipe cleans / reinstallations” etc. on others.
Like many things, once you can do it, you wonder why anyone else can have problems with it.
There may be minor difference in most situations, such that a novice would trip up when attempting to follow any published instructions. An experienced professional would skip over those and barely notice… that is one reason why teaching is so difficult in any subject.

As I mentioned in the other Thread ( http://eileenslounge.com/viewtopic.php?p=244529#p244600" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) , there may be other factors, such as commercial reasons, why some people who should have been able to do it were either unable to , not allowed to, or reluctant to do it…

Alan
I am having difficulty logging in with this account just now.
You can find me at DocAElstein also