Calling all Language Mavens

[ChrisGreaves]

A couple of recent emails has drawn attention to the fact that I was raised in Western Australia, but lived for seven years in South Australia.

This raised the question of why we don't say "raised in West Australia, but lived for seven years in Southern Australia."

Since in both cases we use "Australia" there can't be any argument about adjectives, adverbs, etc.

I suppose that sometime back during federation roughly 1900, it was a bit of a toss-up in terminology. Maybe the fiercely independence delegates from the west wanted to assert their independence. Maybe not.
There is the Northern Territory. And we have South Africa and The Southern Ocean.

I found a cheeky ABC nine-minute interview and could email Jackie Coffin in Kalgoorlie WA, but she is too much like me to take seriously:-
Interviewer's first question: "Jackie, are you a Western Australian or a West Australian?"
Jackie's first answer: "Actually I''m a Queenslander".

The state's paper is "The West Australian"

I could ask Kevin Stroud.

But I wonder who amongst us can come up with a rational theory.
Or at least some awkward and unanswered examples.

Thanks, Chris

[HansV]

It appears to be rather random to me: Western Europe and Eastern Europe but West Africa and East Asia, North Texas but Southern California, North Wales but Northern Ireland, etc.

[BobH]

Does it possibly come down to proper names? It's my understanding that Oz has both Western and Northern Australia and South Australia. I have no clue why 2 of them used the adjective suffix and the 1 did not.

Australian delight in perversity, perhaps?

[GeoffW]

Does it possibly come down to proper names? It's my understanding that Oz has both Western and Northern Australia and South Australia. I have no clue why 2 of them used the adjective suffix and the 1 did not.

Australian delight in perversity, perhaps?

Northern Australia is a regional description, the other two are formal state names. You may be thinking of the Northern Territory, which is a proper name.

But there also seems to be an inconsistency in place names as to where the direction is placed. So I was living in Cardiff South, in Newcastle (NSW), but there is also a suburb of North Lambton.

[Graeme]

I was born a Kentish Man (baby!) Grew up as a Man of Kent and now I'm living as a Kentish Man.

The pubs are named similarly for the same reason.

Nothing to do with Australia though!

Graeme

[John Gray]

And there was me thinking that you were going to discuss the word Maven, almost unheard of in the UK...

[RonH]

Maven

I had to look that up ...

The word maven comes from the Yiddish meyvn, meaning "one who understands." But to be a maven you have to more than just understand a topic, you have to know its ins and outs. Often mavens are the people that you turn to as experts in a field.

Hmm, for sure, that excludes me ...

[ChrisGreaves]

Maven

@Hans: It appears to be rather random to me: Western Europe and Eastern Europe but West Africa and East Asia, North Texas but Southern California, North Wales but Northern Ireland, etc.
Hans, I think you are right; Random; quirks of the language(s). Such as why the opposite of “I will not” is “I Won’t”
That the language maven from Queensland who went on to state that she was a prescriptive grammarian rather then a descriptive grammarian (or perhaps the other way round) and that she didn’t really have an answer to the question suggests that very few people know the answer.

@BobH Does it possibly come down to proper names? It's my understanding that Oz has both Western and Northern Australia and South Australia. I have no clue why 2 of them used the adjective suffix and the 1 did not.
I doubt this. I pointed out that we had { Western | South } Australia with the common object “Australia”, and my interest is heightened by the fact both of these are States, rather then Territories (as in “Northern Territory” and “Australian Capital Territory.
I figured that all bets were off once we started using different objects for the adjectives, but that WA and SA are, in terms of federation, equal. The big debate of 125 years ago was “Equal representation in the Senate (=Upper House)”. In that sense all Australian states is equal, regardless of area, population; so why not equal under naming?

@GeoffW Australian delight in perversity, perhaps?
Could be, could be. It was WA who dug in its heels over Equal Representation, right?
But there also seems to be an inconsistency in place names as to where the direction is placed. So I was living in Cardiff South, in Newcastle (NSW), but there is also a suburb of North Lambton.
For once in its life the USA seems to be consistent:-
(1) North Carolina, South Carolina
(1) North Dakota, South Dakota
(1) Virginia, West Virginia
But that may just be being too lazy to argue.

@Graeme I was born a Kentish Man …
Hmm. Interesting. Australians and Canadians use the “ish” suffix frequently (He was a bit stand-offish, but then he is English”), but not, as far as I can recall, for geographic areas. Very occasionally “You should head Northish from there”, but more commonly “You should head in a Northerly direction from there”.

@John Gray And there was me thinking that you were going to discuss the word Maven, almost unheard of in the UK.
But we were, John, we were going to. And did. And are. Don’t be so tense! Relax. Be patient. Here comes Ron to satisfy your every wish, should you be wishish.

@RonH The word maven comes from the Yiddish meyvn, meaning "one who understands." But to be a maven you have to more than just understand a topic, you have to know its ins and outs. Often mavens are the people that you turn to as experts in a field. Hmm, for sure, that excludes me ...
Ron, first off thanks for putting John Gray out of his misery.
Second, thanks for pointing out that you ARE a maven by your ability to source etymology of the word “maven”, although I've never been able to understand what this has to do with insects.
Third thanks for confirming that I am not a maven; I had hoped to convey that in the subject line, but you have clarified that, too.

Cheers, Chris

[RonH]

What is there left to say but ... gosh

[ChrisGreaves]

What is there left to say but ... gosh

Well, you could be blushish
Cheers, Chris
PS I have emailed Kevin Stroud of The History of English podcast. C

[John Gray]

"Quoth the Maven, 'Nevermore'..." - Edgar Allan Poe
A line from the best doggerel you will encounter outside of McGonagall!

[HansV]

In other news: Terrible news for pedants as Merriam-Webster relaxes the rules of English.
(It escapes me why British pedants should worry about anything Merriam-Webster says...)

[John Gray]

Yes, I read that a day or two ago. Quite shameful - but what does one expect from a country which redeployed our language for their own purposes?!

[PaulB]

Student 1: 'Scuse me, where's the library at?

Student 2: One does not end a sentence with a preposition!

Student 1: Okay, where's the library at, butt-head?

[GeoffW]

Then there are the double negatives, which are no nos.

There was the lecturer who told his students that there were many examples of two negatives making a positive, but no examples of two positives making a negative.

To which, one student responded, Yeah Right!

[ChrisGreaves]

(It escapes me why British pedants should worry about anything Merriam-Webster says...)

I can't let this go unchallenged, Hans: Pedants, British or Otherwise, can, and do worry about anything

I speak from a lifetime's experience.
Cheers, Chris

[ChrisGreaves]

Yes, I read that a day or two ago. Quite shameful - but what does one expect from a country which redeployed our language for their own purposes?!

Spoken like a true Anglo Saxon
Cheers, Chris

[ChrisGreaves]

Student 1: Okay, where's the library at, butt-head?

Cheers, Chris

[ChrisGreaves]

There was the lecturer who told his students that there were many examples of two negatives making a positive, but no examples of two positives making a negative.

Thanks, Geoff. Would you mind if I hijacked this portion of the topic and veered into the single-instruction computer whose instruction is 'Subtract and store", demonstrating quite ably that a subtraction instruction is more powerful than an addition instruction?
Thanks, Chris