Business laptop Win10Pro

JoeP
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Re: Business laptop Win10Pro

Post by JoeP »

@Chris,

If you intend on keeping the machine for a long time in computer time (i.e. > 5 years), I recommend you get at least an I5 in a machine that you can upgrade RAM and HDD/SSD. I also recommend an SSD. Once you use a machine with an SSD for a bit a similar machine with an HDD will seem like it is in slow motion. You might be surprised by what you can accomplish with a capable machine. Either more work in the same time or the same amount of work in less time thereby leaving more time for leisurely pursuits. I know that I push my personal envelope a bit when I buy a machine. I encourage you to look around as it seems to me you can get a more capable PC for the money you said in your original post.
Joe

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Re: Business laptop Win10Pro

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ChrisGreaves wrote:
26 Jun 2020, 11:52
In my initial post I was looking for deal-breaker considerations, something that would leave my without a working solution once the laptop landed here. Slowness is worse than fastness, heat is worse than cool, noise is worse than quiet, and so on, but they don't stop me from working.
No deal-breakers per se, but if you are going to spend a certain amount, it is quite common to try to get the best you can for the money.
(Unless there are other objectives; maintaining a good relation with a local dealer etc. But still, if you can get twice for the same amount somewhere else ...)

Anyhow,
Since a tiny bit "old" there's not many selling it here, in fact only one left it seems, and then they tend to be on the expensive side; but with an i3 8130U; 8 GB RAM (it has 4 GB soldered, plus two slots I think, as max is 20 GB); and with a 256 GB SSD, and Win10 Pro, an Acer TravelMate P2510 will cost 6990 SEK incl. VAT, around 1000 CAD, I think. So you get 4 extra GB and a medium sized SSD for the same amount here. I also agree with John, above, that Acer isn't the first brand that springs to mind when thinking about 'business class'. But it seems they are trying.

For the same amount there are quite many 14-15.6" laptops with 8 GB RAM and 256-512 GB SSDs with 8th to 10th generation Intel i5s (though probably many with Win10 Home, but there are exceptions; and then we also have second-hand; most with 8 GB, SSDs, and 4th to 8th gen. Intel, but there are exceptions).* So, by looking around a bit it is possible to find similar 15.6" with twice the amount of RAM, a SSD, and probably quite a lot faster CPU.

That said, as we know the Pause/Break-key is seldom there. As you most of the time probably isn't moving it around you could also use an external full-size keyboard (possibly a docking station and an external monitor as well).

* Another example, for "businesses", in the lower or mid-range; ThinkPad E series (although also not the first that springs to mind when thinking 'business class'); a Lenovo E595 (that's the one with an AMD, Ryzen 7 3700U, can also be found with Intel); with 8 GB RAM, a 256 GB SSD, and Win10 Pro can be found around 1000 CAD; that's four cores/8 threads and twice the CPU Mark. In the past I think some laptops with AMD got a little hot and noisy, but they have improved quite a bit with Ryzen.
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Re: Business laptop Win10Pro

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HansV wrote:
27 Jun 2020, 10:10
I suspect that one of the boxes in my cellar still contains a slide rule... :evilgrin:
The drawer under my computer desk contains a 5-inch slide rule and a circular slide rule; there are two 10-inch slide rules (mine and my late father-in-law's) in a bookcase upstairs.

Isaac Newton's third reflecting telescope is displayed at the Royal Society of London (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27 ... scope.jpeg). An astronomer of my acquaintance mentioned that a note taped to the back of the display, not visible to the public, says "In case of emergency, break glass." I consider the slide rules to be similar backups. In case of computer failure, you know. :laugh:

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Re: Business laptop Win10Pro

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Jay Freedman wrote:
28 Jun 2020, 18:34
I consider the slide rules to be similar backups. In case of computer failure, you know. :laugh:
:rofl:
Best wishes,
Hans

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Re: Business laptop Win10Pro

Post by ChrisGreaves »

JoeP wrote:
28 Jun 2020, 01:30
... an HDD will seem like it is in slow motion. You might be surprised by what you can accomplish with a capable machine. Either more work in the same time or the same amount of work in less time thereby leaving more time for leisurely pursuits.
Hi Joe. This long-winded reply is not aimed at you as much as a general response to "speed" and "slowness" in systems in this thread. I am not buying a Lamborghini; I am buying a little 4-cyclinder Hyundai Excel which will carry 3 pounds of grey matter from here to there and back again.

I am a bit like the colleague who drove his new car from Toronto to Ottawa (London to Manchester, New York to Chicago) in first gear and couldn't be bothered learning the other gears because "already this car is so much faster than walking". It is not exactly my case, but it serves. I was brought up old school so most of my work is paper-and-pencil, thinking; real-time development (typing in VBA statements) was not available Back Then. I have watched people develop ideas at the keyboard and it is not a pretty sight. True, you and I can dump idiomatic code to the keyboard, but direct brain-to-store for me usually results in a complete re-write a month later. That costs me a month!
That is why most of my time is (or should be) spent away from the machine.

Hard disks today are blindingly fast compared to my 20MB drive of 1985 and the punched cards of 1967, certainly in terms of loading a program or saving a document (of any kind). which is my greatest use of disk storage.
The only time I wish any computer was faster is when it is running a production job, and now that I am retired, I don't get many calls to Convert And Clean tens of thousands of documents. And when I was doing that, I much preferred to have the job run on-site, because then the client had to pay me for my time spent visibly on-site ($$$$$, heh heh).

I have in the past two weeks completed timing trials on a program, processing a document of increasing size of 1, 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 1,000, 2,000, 3,000, 4,000, 5,000, 6,000, 7,000, 8,000, 9,000, 10,000, 15,000, 20,000, 25,000 and 30,000 pages.
The 1-page job is complete before my right hand is halfway to the coffee mug; the 30,000 behemoth took a day and a half to run. But I don't care about that day and a half (well, I do, but I care about what part of my program or Word2003 is causing it to take so long rather than the CPU speed) because the job is running on a separate laptop (the DELL Inspiron), and I have a list of tasks to do in the garden, not to mention wood working projects in the shed. It took a day to drain 625 litres of kerosene from the oil tank, barrow 25 drums of it to David's place, get the trailer and the little Cat from the cabin, topple the tank, haul it across the street ...) Because I saw the run-time creep up, I soon knew that I could set it going and spend four hours outside before needing to come back in and check on it, so a slow-running job does not prevent me spending time on leisure pursuits. This is a program I wrote in Word6 back in 1994-ish, rewrote in VBA97 back then, and rewrote a third time about five years ago, so it has very few logic bugs by now. It just runs.

This monstrous timing job is something I should have done twenty years ago, so it is a once-in-twenty-years project, and from it I will learn something else I should NOT do when analysing huge character strings (30,000 pages of text!) in future VBA tasks.
I know that I push my personal envelope a bit when I buy a machine. I encourage you to look around as it seems to me you can get a more capable PC for the money you said in your original post.
We all do that, of course.
Back in `the early 90s I urged newcomers to buy a $1,700 basic machine rather than be swayed by the salesman's pitch about $5,000-$7,000 machines with high-end graphics, CPUs that were rated at a staggering 33MHz, which was way beyond the needs of folks who had never typed a document on a computer, never written a formula to calculate the cheque-book balance, never played pong on a monochrome screen. I urged them to use the computer for two years and then find out what they wanted to do. They had to find out by reading the weekly computer papers and joining one or more BBS systems and mastering off-line readers.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that half the machines represented ("in use") in this thread would shred my day-and-a-half job to an hour, maybe less, but I only need to run that job once to get the true time; never again. Well, not for another twenty years, at any rate.

All that said, there are other considerations than the fastest machine. That Lambhorgini would have averaged 35Km/hour across the top of Toronto on the (up to 19-lane) highway #401 any time in the past ten years, maybe 80KM/h on the trip to Burlington five days a week down the QEW. That is, In regular use the high-speed is not really evident.

Finally, there are other considerations mentioned in this thread, my innate desire to shop locally, or "in person", the issue of the mal-functioning Ctrl keys, track-pad, and the reluctant realisation that I ought to upgrade Win7HP to Win10 and (cries of lamentation) abandon Word2003 and get Office2019,
And make a decision and move forward.

Again, this response is a general diatribe; your post served to give me something to anchor on. And YES! The minute I get the new machine setup, I shall run that 30,000 pager and we shall see what we shall see!

Cheers, and thanks.
Chris
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Re: Business laptop Win10Pro

Post by ChrisGreaves »

Argus wrote:
28 Jun 2020, 14:00
(Unless there are other objectives; maintaining a good relation with a local dealer etc.
Hi Argus, et al.Yes, these and other aspects of the deal, which is why in the initial post I was focussed on what NOT to do, rather than what to do. That is, I was looking for a deal-crippling reason such as "We are all abandoning Windows and moving to Apple" or "fifty percent of all Acer Business machines are returned to the dealer within three months".
... there's not many selling it here, in fact only one left it seems, and then they tend to be on the expensive side;
Quite so. Three weeks ago I had a whim that Bonavista should have a web cam, and I went looking. The web cams appeared to be sold out, everywhere (I am not the world's best searcher) as every man and his dog bought webcams so that they could Zoom, or Facebook or whatever it is folks do nowadays to avoid writing an AirMail form to Aunt Myrtle in New Zealand. Maybe Qantas gave each of its 21,000 layoffs a web cam as a going-away present ("Now, keep in touch, d'y'hear!").
When I asked a repair shop in St John's about a keyboard replacement for the Toshiba, the response was "I can get the keyboard from China for $45-50 (2-4 weeks) and from Canada for $65 (7-10 business days". I suspected that the time estimates were optimistic, as some people in Bonavista have found out to their dismay.
[Stop Press] "I am looking at the spreadsheet you sent me on the external drives. I do not have any external hard drives in stock. I have USB flash drives only with the largest being 32 gb for $19.95"[/Stop Press]
The St John's dealer said he had a laptop in stock and sent a photo of the Break-key on the keyboard, with visions in my head of moving on and up to Win10/Office2019.
That said, as we know the Pause/Break-key is seldom there. As you most of the time probably isn't moving it around you could also use an external full-size keyboard (possibly a docking station and an external monitor as well).
I confess I had not considered an external keyboard/mouse which would have served me on both the DELL Inspiron and the Toshiba Tecra. I could see me moving the externals from one machine to the other ("Today I must work mainly on the Dell ...").
Over the past thirty years my brain has become hard-wired to the left-hand Ctrl key - my on the fly macros are all assigned to Shift-Ctrl-K, my Toggle-All macro is Ctrl-Shift-A, many others - and at times it seems that my real slow-down is my inability to call in time-saving macros for boring and repetitive tasks with a simple motion. Hence, for me, the pressure to make an executive decision and get on with life, such as it is.
Cheers, and thanks again for this response
Chris
Last edited by ChrisGreaves on 29 Jun 2020, 14:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Business laptop Win10Pro

Post by ChrisGreaves »

Jay Freedman wrote:
28 Jun 2020, 18:34
The drawer under my computer desk contains a 5-inch slide rule and a circular slide rule; there are two 10-inch slide rules...
How times change! We used the same slide-rule for straight line calculations (how far is the foot of the ladder from the wall?) and for curves calculations (what is the radius of the rain-water tank?) I guess slide-rules weren't as specialised when I was a kid :laugh: :rofl:
And anyway, we are all metric now, so you should get new slide rules.
...consider the slide rules to be similar backups. In case of computer failure, you know. :laugh:
Can't happen to me. I'm buying a new laptop with Windows 10!
Cheers
Chris
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Re: Business laptop Win10Pro

Post by Argus »

If buying something that is around midrange performance wise is unnecessary cause being too fast, it could be put another way then, you could most probably have got something equally and suitably slow for less. Good luck with the new machine, Chris. (And perhaps most of all: with Windows 10. :laugh:)
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Re: Business laptop Win10Pro

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Argus wrote:
29 Jun 2020, 17:16
Good luck with the new machine, Chris. (And perhaps most of all: with Windows 10. :laugh:)
Thanks Argus.
:laughing too, I guess:
Cheers
Chris
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Re: Business laptop Win10Pro

Post by Doc.AElstein »

Hi Chris,
I realise you have “done it” now, ( you fool! :) ) , but I wanted to add some comments and only just got a round to-it
ChrisGreaves wrote:
23 Jun 2020, 14:32
Question: Can you think of a good, practical every-day reason for me NOT to buy this laptop?
For example ...
…… I may well have to move away from Office2003,...
Reading some published stuff from Microsoft, and based on a lot of my experience with older Software on newer machines or newer Operating Systems…. and translating into normal English… it is likely that in the future Microsoft will do there best to break some of your older software to encourage you to update. It probably is not a conspiracy, and possibly not even a company policy. It is probably done at local level: an individual Microsoft Software engineer that knows full well how he could prevent a change he is making breaking some old stable software. But instead he chooses for personal reasons to do stuff that breaks older stuff, and then hides behind the bullsh** “ we don’t support the older stuff so obviously something like that could coincidently happen”
_._
stuck wrote:
23 Jun 2020, 17:34
...
OS: Win 10 Pro, because …. I like the Group Policy Editor options it offers for controlling Windows Updates
:rofl:
_._
HansV wrote:
26 Jun 2020, 16:10
.... 'Four Yorkshiremen' :grin: ...
I missed that sketch, one of my favourites that reminds me of my background… I never knew the sketch name so lost it along the way….
Before I emigrated to the fatherland and had here a decade or 3 of hibernation, I worked at a state of the art research place in England, and we turned out some of the most important stuff behind some aspects of mobile communications. Our departments was not into computing, and the computer department was one man who did everything, software and hardware and always got it right – debugging and updates were not really in trend back then. Business was good, we could hardly keep up with how we were expanding, and almost had a blank check to get the best. A colleague of mine needed something to speed up the complicated em wave calculations he was doing, so he got the best “PC” on his desk. It looked like a modern television from that time, but black and white , ( or maybe green and white ) . I think it was A Sun Workstation, but I don’t really remember much about it. What I do remember is that I bought my first house a few years before, and the cost of the “PC” was about the same.
It needed about a day to do the calculations that my “old” Vistas machine laughs over now..
_._
ChrisGreaves wrote:
27 Jun 2020, 10:16
Also you guys don't want to witness me being dragged succesively through Office2007, Office2010, etc.
HansV wrote:
23 Jun 2020, 14:47
... would entail getting used to the dreaded Ribbon. You'll hate it with a vengeance, but you'll get used to it eventually.
I missed a big chunk of computer development and came in at the 2007/2010 time. I didn’t know there was a Excel 2003 without a ribbon. Now I got both and have got quite used to both of them.
I wish I had started on 2003, then I might of stayed there, or at least, like I do now, get everything working on 2003, then try it , if necessary, or if desired on 2007 +
I hit a lot of problems with efficient data handling of large amounts of data. One thing that caused me problems was the large column count in 2007 +
People a lot smarter than me have told me that the large number of columns is a bit of a stupid thing for anything to do with computers.
I have 3x 2007 and x9 2010 licences, which were quite expensive at the time. More recently I bought a lot of unused 2003 discs for next to nothing. Mostly I have the 2007+ only for some important files which I developed that use a lot of columns and I wish I hadn’t.- I have not had time to rewrite it all for the lower columns in 2003 yet.
_._
HansV wrote:
26 Jun 2020, 18:17
One thing to keep in mind if you're going to upgrade from Office 2003 to a newer version: VBA runs slower with each new version. Microsoft expects users to upgrade their computer together with their Office version so that they don't notice.
that seems to be a general rule that Microsoft or computing software things generally are set to need more speed and the hope is that you don’t notice because you upgrade your hardware. New features / improvements will account for some of the required better hardware, but obviously there is also extra stuff that “they” want you to have, and that you probably wouldn’t if you ever knew anything about it. I think they try to do as much as “they can get away with”. Maybe with Windows 10 they pushed there luck a bit too far and a lot of people are rebelling. They seem to have backed off a bit recently. Whether that is their contribution to helping temporarily in the current Corona crises, or whether it is a long term change in strategy remains to be seen.
_._
ChrisGreaves wrote:
27 Jun 2020, 09:40
..... speed has never been a big issue for me. ........ Perhaps it is my way of thinking/working. ...
Computer were never really my thing, although in recent years I have got quite fond of my Excel / VBA forum “Hobby”. One reason I have quite a few computers is that when I do computer stuff, I try to make good use of that time and usually have 3- 4 machines on my desk in front of me or at the side or behind me, all doing stuff. If one computer is taking a while, or temporarily hangs up, won’t connect to the internet, or whatever, then I just move over to one of the others.. Sometimes one machine does something better than any other for no known logical reason that any one can explain. … like a forum changes something, and half the members have problems. I probably do too, but don’t notice, since one combination of browser and computer usually works…. Sometimes trying to figure out a problem and cure is really not worth it, since something changes which effects it .. and half the time you just chase your tail until it falls off..

I sprung the character count again, so more in the next post…
_._
Last edited by Doc.AElstein on 05 Jul 2020, 14:25, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Business laptop Win10Pro

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Continued from last post….
My experience with buying a new computer with Windows 10 , my 2 euros , ( well a bit more than that, but not much)...

Last January, I thought I should have at least one windows 10 machine, just to “keep up”. I bought a “ new “ low spec machine that came with no operating system as standard, but I got the seller to install Windows 10 Pro , and give me the disc, in total for 70 euros total for everything !!. It worked quite well initially but got very slow. The first major feature update crippled / broke it and it took me two weeks to get it working again. It slowed down to a snails pace in the meantime. Reluctantly I spent a lot of time getting clued up with windows 10, I have bored people already with the details in Threads here, so I wont “rant” again... In short, I regularly De Bloat the thing now and it is one of my fastest machines. But you have to keep up to date with that, that’s why I laughed at Ken’s comment… Microsoft try to do what they want with you through Windows 10, so you should be aware of that , Chris..
I think a bit differently to most people’s comments: If its anything to do with Microsoft / Windows, then I don’t think you should plan to spend a lot of money, because I don’t think it has a lot of a future.

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Re: Business laptop Win10Pro

Post by stuck »

Doc.AElstein wrote:
05 Jul 2020, 14:08
stuck wrote:
23 Jun 2020, 17:34
...
OS: Win 10 Pro, because …. I like the Group Policy Editor options it offers for controlling Windows Updates
:rofl:
What's so funny? It would be more constructive and helpful to The Lounge community if you offered positive input. For example, feedback on your direct / actual experience of using the GPE that leads you to dismiss it with a single smiley.

Until you provide evidence to the contrary I stand by my personal experience of using the GPE within Win 10 Pro to control when the updates are delivered.

Ken

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Re: Business laptop Win10Pro

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All I meant was that Microsoft don’t always respect your preferences and update you when they want, I was laughing about the idea of you being able to control windows update, that's all.
To do that you have to keep up to date with the best way to control them, at least to some extent.
( Experience is still useful, which I confess I don’t have as much of as most people here, but that experience is becoming less and less relevant as Microsoft change things so much. )
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Re: Business laptop Win10Pro

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Doc.AElstein wrote:
05 Jul 2020, 15:27
I was laughing about the idea of you being able to control windows update, that's all...
Except you can control updates with the GPE - just not the way you want to. If I understand your posts correctly a good analogy of your situation is:
1) you bought an old car body shell
2) you rented a brand new cutting edge engine and all the fittings
3) you knew at the time you signed the rental agreement that this new engine and fittings was not the same as your old car
4) you installed all the shiny new rented stuff into the old bought car body shell
5) you then stripped out a lot of the rented fittings
6) every month the car is looked at by the people you rent the engine and fittings from, you can't stop this from happening, it's part of the T&Cs you signed up to when you rented their stuff
7) when they do that, the people you rent the engine and fittings from reconfigure the stuff they own (and you rent) to work the way it was designed to work,this includes refitting stuff you've removed, you can't stop this from happening, it's part of the T&Cs you signed up to when you rented their stuff
8) every month when the car is returned to you, you grumble a bucket full that the car has been messed up and proceed to strip out most of what was refitted
9) every six months the people that rent you the engine and fittings offer you a brand new engine with more new fittings, , you can't stop this from happening, it's part of the T&Cs you signed up to when you rented their stuff but it doesn't stop you from grumbling a bucket full about it.

Ken

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Re: Business laptop Win10Pro

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Doc.AElstein wrote:
05 Jul 2020, 14:08
People a lot smarter than me have told me that the large number of columns is a bit of a stupid thing for anything to do with computers.
Well, to put things in perspective, my first spreadsheet (in 1989) was the budget spreadsheet for Laidlaw Waste Systems. DOS Lotus2.1, so a spreadsheet, not a workbook with several worksheets, just a single array of columns and rows.
(1) Two years of data – the current year and the projected year
(2) Twelve months of data per year.
(3) Three columns per month, from memory, the Actual, the Projected, and the Percent Variation.
Multiply that out and you have 72 columns, right?
Then:
(4) Balance Sheet, Income Statement, Cash Flow, Profit & Loss (I may be doubling up here, I had and have no background in accounting at all)
Since there was only the one sheet, each of the four statements had to be arranged in a diagonal manner. We couldn’t have the Balance Sheet alongside the Cash Flow because deleting a row of the one would delete a row of the other. Likewise we couldn’t stack them one above the other. Kitty-Corner it had to be.
So, 72 columns times 4 blocks of data went into 256 columns how many times?
To make it worse I’d never worked in a spreadsheet processor before.
I winged it.
But it worked and they asked me back for the next three years!

Cheers
Chris
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Re: Business laptop Win10Pro

Post by satyenhacks »

A business laptop with higher specs will be a good choice. 4 GB isn't enough as heavy softwares run on such machines. It will make them slow. Upgrade it to around 16GB RAM.
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Re: Business laptop Win10Pro

Post by ChrisGreaves »

ChrisGreaves wrote:
23 Jun 2020, 14:32
This will be a more drastic change than moving to Bonavista, and several of you will be quaking in your boots by the end of this post.
I thought to report back. It wasn't a more drastic change, except for the 2 or 3 weeks spent trying to work out the system image options and the apparent conflicts between the built-in ACER backup system and the legacy Win7 backup systems.

It is a delight to be able to use the <Ctrl> keys on the keyboard, and I anticipate total brain adjustment to the new keyboard layout sometime towards the end of 2046(1)

I want to lodge a commendation to those of you who predicted Gloom, Alarum and Despondency over a movable-head drive rather than an SSD drive.
You were/are correct.
The HDD is slow, and most noticeable when the system is rebooting, or restarting, or whatever it does when I lift the lid first thing in the morning.
I was correct, too: I don't notice the slowness because I am already in the kitchen making a coffee while the hard drive is shuddering away loading Win10.

The only time this delay has concerned me is after the Blue Screen Of Denial ("Oops! Something went wrong. We're working our butts off to get YOU back up to speed" or similar), which occurs when I am sitting at the keyboard poised to recommence work - in four minutes time, as it will turn out to be. This event is almost predictable and I think I have narrowed it down to a conflict between WinAmp and the dismounting of an encrypted (Truecrypt) backup drive. I plan to dig deeper after I have converted my drives to a >4GB structure (NTFS), but that's another thread.

:thankyou: Once again, my thanks for the continuing education. :thankyou:
Chris


(1)The year, not the update!
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