Business laptop Win10Pro

[HansV]

An SSD makes a world of difference - it's really worth getting one.

[StuartR]

An SSD makes a world of difference - it's really worth getting one.

I only use HDD disks for backup and archive nowadays. They are slow, power-hungry, noisy, and generate heat. Altogether a terrible idea for a laptop, and not much better in a desktop PC.

[JoeP]

@Chris,

You should keep an eye on the https://www.techbargains.com/ site. I don't know if any of the deals are available in your neck of the woods. I just saw an HP ENVY 13 Intel Core i7-1065G7 13.3" 8GB RAM 512GB SSD 4K Touch Laptop for $699.99 USD there.

[ChrisGreaves]

... It is possibly overkill for me (Word2003/VBA and DOS batch files), but then Bonavista is remote, so a machine that doesn't break down sounds attractive (nearest repair shop is 3.5 hours drive away in St John's), and Win10PRO sounds like it ought to work.
The main thing for me is that Roger assures me that it has a Pause/Break key so that I can interrupt a running VBA program.
Question: Can you think of a good, practical every-day reason for me NOT to buy this laptop? For example "It takes seven days to reboot" or "You have to pay $100/month for the Windows updates:" or "It is probably 67 bits instead of 64 bits".
My DELL Inspiron has no Break key, and my Toshiba Tecra now has not a single functioning Ctrl key. Pension day is Friday.

I have highlighted your names to make it easier to find specific responses.
This is an attempt to catch up on all responses to this thread. It reads like a brain-dump, because it is. In most respects I am arguing with myself about whether I should treat myself to a new (not refurbished) computer from a local business, or just struggle on with two computers that each work partway.

I do understand your comments about bigger, faster, and I have been aware of this from the days of the XT chassis when for most people’s needs in Toronto, a $1,700 XT chassis was all they needed. Of couse they wanted (and many of them bought) $5,000 machines on which they ran … PCWrite, PCFile and so on, just like me.
I am retired, but carry on programming and training; I just don’t get paid for doing it.

DELL Inspiron	Toshiba Tecra	Acer Business
450GB hard drive, newer model than Toshiba.	No Ctrl-keys now	$1,000+
No Break Key	Probably dirty keyboard	Learn Win10/office???
Mouse is flaky	250GB hard drive	500GB hard drive
Probably dirty keyboard

StuartR> Twenty-five years ago Gord Campbell’s strategy was “Buy the biggest hard drive you can afford and build a computer around it”. I think that is still true for general users today, but I feel too that I am “not normal” in that I don’t have huge AV requirements, and so 500GB is enough for me. I confess that the 250GB is a limitation on my Toshiba, and I have offloaded photographs to DVDs (but still they are backed up to my 900GB external drive)
Hans> I don’t think of myself as running many applications side-by-side. Winamp non-stop, then Word as I write/develop. Everything else can be handled by Virtual Memory/Paging as far as I am concerned. I will load Audacity when I detect more than five seconds applause at the start or end of a track, but that occurs once every three days.
Hans> Yes, I am resigned to a newer version of Office. As I type the DELL/Word2003 has passed the 20,000 page mark (36 hours) and is embarked on a 25,000 page document to be indexed. I am doing timing/performance runs on a program I wrote.
I wrote four blogs in 2007/2010 on Office, one each for the User and developer. Ribbon might be good for mouse users, but I remain a keyboard junky. I realized last week that someone who claims “it is just one click!” uses about four hand/arm motor movements as they swipe, swipe, swipe and fine tune to position the mouse and only then do they effect their one click. Gimme Ctrl-F4 every time. It is not a moving target.
Stuart> I have asked the dealer about a bigger drive; yes, it can be substituted but (a) with a cost of labour and (b) with low resale value for the 500GB. That is, I pay more. He confirms that AV stuff consumes pace, and were I still in business I would probably have masses of client conversion (document conversion, web page analysis, numeric analysis and so on) at hand. But that condition no longer applies.
DaveA> I am not sure what I would do with 8GB RAM. My basic understanding is that this old Toshiba is working for me without any life-shattering delay. Apart from system files (hiberfil, pagefile) the only files greater than 300MB are AV files (movies, Audiobooks) or a couple of FORTRAN compilers, and these are all backed up to my daily 400GB drive and my weekly 900GB drive and in any case can be obtained by a download from the web.
HansV> Correct. I am not into CPU/graphic intensive games. Ventusky (real-time weather map) pops up a warning from Coretemp.exe, but that serves to remind me to get back outside into the garden!
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[ChrisGreaves]

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JoeP> If the 13 processor can’t run Win10 then that might be a problem, but in my current (and probably permanent!) state, CPU speed is not critical. Most of my work is interactive, specifically typing of Word documents or VBA programs, and for that, to me, a Ctrl-key is the critical point. Ctrl-shortcuts save me hours each week. Well, maybe just an hour, but a faster CPU could get to the moon and back in between keystrokes from my two-fingered typing.
I am sure that this will sound strange to you, but I’d keep the Toshiba for five more years if the Ctrl keys worked. So you might ask “Why not send the machine off for a cleaning and a new keyboard?”, and that is an option at about $200 (keyboard $65, labour, taxi both ways at about $25 per, taxes etc). I cannot just walk down the hill in the morning and collect the machine that evening. The shop in St John’s has to order a keyboard from Toronto (more time and $$$). This scenario puts pressure on me to but a brand new off-the-shelf machine and get back to typing.
Stuck> Much of my preceding comments apply. I understand SSD and this morning’s phone call assured me that an SSD could be put in, but again, at much extra cost. Your split “main device” and “secondary machine” is on target. Now that I am retired, the machine automatically assumes status of “secondary” or hobby-machine.
Argus> I understand that an i3/HDD could make it appear slow, but just how much slower can it be while it is waiting for me to type. (20 years ago I used Word97/VBA to write a biometric password routine that logged the start/end times on each key depression. My machine back then had time for a cuppa in the time I took to depress, and release, each key!)
KDock> I note that you are doing graphics. I do very little. MSPaint to edit screen snapshots, and even though Audacity takes five minutes to open an opera.mp3 I get other stuff done while the file is opening (or saving). If I were an AV person I would need a faster/bigger system.
I am glad that you said 500GB was enough. My DELL is using only 105GB of its 500GB.
John Gray> I would like to have an SSD instead of the HD, but time and money constraints creep in. Time especially. I can order the i3/500GB HD today and it will be here tomorrow. It is true that the $1000 scares me, but $1000 plus the cost of an SSD replacement etc scares me even more. I see $700 (before tax, shipping) at Best Buy but my experience at Best Buy, Staples etc is that the supply the mass-market, and I got a blank stare when I specified a Break key, or at best a response “No one wants that key any more”.
I major attraction of this specific deal is that the dealer answers the phone each time I call, sends me a re-assuring photograph of the Break key, and can ship the thing from St John’s TODAY.
As far as screen resolution goes it can’t be worse than this Toshiba Tecra, can it? And FWIW the Toshiba screen works for me. Yes, I’d adore a 2-pound laptop with a 72” screen, but it’s not going to happen (grin). I don’t think I have ever used a webcam.
I agree that $1000 is costly, more so than a $700 from a bulk store, but man oh man I was crippled on the DELL (with no break key). You must try to imagine how many of my programs don’t work right the first time (hah hah). There is a significant emotional value in knowing that I won’t get shipped a limited keyboard by some bored clerk somewhere else in North America.
A DVD burner would be good, but in a pinch, or in the short term, I could use the Toshiba as a burner.
STUCK> Yes, I checked John’s link. I am unsure of shipping costs from the UK. In fact, I’d rather lease a car for the day and drive Bonavista to St John’s and back to collect the laptop rather than have a machine shipped from the UK. I know I am old-fashioned …
BOBH> Thanks Bob, but this lack of keyboard facility (Ctrl keys) is distracting. I am a keyboard junkie (never quite got over not being able to keypunch those cards, you know). You may have read my previous comments that I am now a retired/hobbyist/casual user.
After all, that is how I have survived on Win XP/HP/Office2003 for so long. Were I still developing/delivering training courses I would have been forced into Win10/Office2019. Even though Word, Excel etc are basically unchanged, clients won’t buy a course unless the screen snapshots show The Latest Version.
PJ_in_FL> Hi PJ. I am unsure about the validity of you comment of the paging spinning the HD constantly. I don’t detect that happening now (on the Toshiba or on the DELL). I can’t remember being concerned about it any time in the past fifteen years, maybe twenty. Remember, I am usually working on Word documents of 50KB or less, and those documents (and the ones that reach up to 200KB) are that large because they are populated with images. 80% of my DO* files are under 100KB. In short, I don’t use a great deal of memory. Audacity and DVD_Styler and Camtasia might hog RAM, but I use those programs perhaps once a week.
My real drain with Excel occurs when I save a workbook. I have a thread about Excel fragmenting workbooks to a minimum of 18 fragments. My technique is to issue File, save, and then reach for another sip of coffee.
Yes, my costs are spread out over a long lifetime, and I am aiming at another twenty years, but I must also consider other non-computer costs. I’d much rather pay $200 for the machine I might buy, but that’s not going to happen. If I pay $1000 that puts the windows-replacement (REAL windows!) back a month, but sets me up with a machine for five, maybe ten years.
JoeP> Thanks for the link. I took a quick look. Remember that $700US is about $1000CDN, so …
This morning’s first offer is “Dell is offering their Dell G7 15 Intel Core i7-8750H 6-Core 15.6" 1080p IPS Gaming Laptop w/ 6GB GDDR6 NVIDIA RTX 2060 Graphics, 16GB RAM, 128GB SSD + 1TB Hard Drive for a low $999.99 Free Shipping” but then, I don’t want a “gaming laptop” at $1300. When I work my way down to $US300 I see BestBuy deals and the like which in my experience lack my desired Break Key.
Some three or four years ago I wandered Toronto looking for a break-key laptop. Not one of the major chains/stores had one.

THANKS TO ALL WHO RESPONDED

[JoeP]

The bargains change from day-to-day. I'd keep checking.

The problem with an I3 is not just the processor. Usually, the speeds of the other components like the system bus are slower too. So, the whole thing just "feels" slow. If you are doing much work in Excel then an SSD would do wonders. Fragmentation is hot a big issue with SSDs. With an SSD you should let Windows do its thing and can eliminate any defrag from your regular routine. If an I7 is our of your price range steo down to an I5. Still much better than an i3. BTW, an i3 will run Windows 10. It just won't run it as well as something a little more capable.

[Argus]

Seems you have made up your mind, Chris: Local supplier is better; quick delivery is better; Break key is more important than just about anything, it seems. If I would buy or build something to keep for 3-5-7-10 years, it wouldn't matter even if it took 3-4 weeks to get it (my last build with some 10 components arrived the day after). And if performance isn't important, but working Break & Ctrl keys are, then surely one could get something even cheaper (refurbished or not), as long as it isn't a cheap "mass-market" notebook as you say.

(I don't know about the strategy to build a computer around the biggest hard drive you can afford; it's true that we tend to fill them over time, but they are "cheap" nowadays, and can be replaced. Choosing platform, generation (CPU socket) can be far trickier, together with expansion support for M.2 SSDs etc. etc. One can add or change simple SATA HDDs or SSDs with little effort.)

[John Gray]

Chris:

I certainly wasn't suggesting that you bought from the UK one of the laptops which that firm supplies! No doubt Canada has a whole bunch of firms which do the same thing - refurbish superseded business laptops from commercial companies and knock them out to the general public with a Microsoft-approved Windows 10 licence! And maybe even offer free shipping.

Secondly, you seem to think that SSDs cost a vast fortune, even more than your own (were't possible)! In fact, they are now much the same price as the equivalent size of ordinary hard drive, for 500GB and lower, and even a 1TB SSD is not significantly more expensive than that of a 1TB hard drive. Time will converge the prices, and spinning disk manufacturers do not any more produce 256GB hard drives! Here's some SSD prices from Crucial UK as an example. (Look at the hard-drive-shaped ones, not the memory-stick-shaped ones!)

Believe me - if you today choose a laptop without an SSD you will kick yourself all the way back to Toronto...! And you know how bad the roads are...

PS Have you done any research on a software method or laptop-specific key-combination for implementing your beloved Break key?

[ChrisGreaves]

Secondly, you seem to think that SSDs cost a vast fortune, ...

Not as SSD, if only because there are no moving parts, so a simpler engineering task.
No, my concern here was that IF I collected this off-the-shelf solution THEN I would pay extra to replace the HD with an SSD AND it would take time to get the SSD (St John's gets its kit from Toronto, perhaps an extra week), AND I would be the proud owner of an HD which I wouldn't use.
That is, both an increased dollar cost and an increased delivery time.

As far as time goes, I figure that it will take me a week to do the various image backups, learn basic navigation around Win10, install my precious applications and batch files (as an example, my backup batch file that does its double-backup on Sunday nights). People will say that Win10 is intuitive, but there is always a learning curve and a customization time.

PS Have you done any research on a software method or laptop-specific key-combination for implementing your beloved Break key?

Not this specific link, but over the past year I have essayed with keyboard substitutes, and not one of worked. (Apart from the fact that for years now my brain has been hard-wired to that left-hand Ctrl key (A, S, Z, X, C, V, B is a handy cluster of shortcut keys)).
FWIW I was never able to get Sendkeys to work on my various Win/Office combinations.

John, thanks for this follow up and "checklist".
Cheers
Chris

[ChrisGreaves]

Seems you have made up your mind, Chris: Local supplier is better; quick delivery is better; Break key is more important than just about anything, it seems.

Hi Argus; yes, "and the Ctrl key".
The Toshiba was purchased for $175 three or four years ago as a stop-gap measure. It has served me well in that role, and despite my dig-in-heels approach to life, I have to conceded that from time to time i should struggle to get to the back of the [windows] pack (grin).

In my initial post I was looking for deal-breaker considerations, something that would leave my without a working solution once the laptop landed here. Slowness is worse than fastness, heat is worse than cool, noise is worse than quiet, and so on, but they don't stop me from working.

...it wouldn't matter even if it took 3-4 weeks to get it (my last build with some 10 components arrived the day after). And if performance isn't important, but working Break & Ctrl keys are, then surely one could get something even cheaper (refurbished or not), as long as it isn't a cheap "mass-market" notebook as you say.

Quite so, but there are a variety of other considerations, such as local supplier/repair. And St John's isn't local to me, but it is a $25 taxi drop-off and pick-up fee away. Pick up at my door at 6am and it is at the dealers by 10am and if the stars spin properly, pickup at 4pm and drop off home at 6pm.

I must confess to procrastination; the second Ctrl key started playing up a month ago; THAT was the time to source a replacement. But now the mental pressure is building up; I am about to scream in frustration. "There is always enough time for one more day of procrastination".

(I don't know about the strategy to build a computer around the biggest hard drive you can afford; it's true that we tend to fill them over time, but they are "cheap" nowadays, and can be replaced.

I agree. The course that Gord and I developed was back in the early 90s when you could buy an XT-chassis and then go shopping for a 40MB (yes!) drive.
We used two local computer papers as our textbooks; had everyone circle the ads that said "$1,700" and had students read out the common elements to see that all $1,700 computers were the same, and the ads told us that the machine came with a keyboard(!) and a parallel port for a printer (!!!). IOW the basic XT chassis was $1,700 and if you were new to computers, you should really choose a salesman who listened to your questions and treated you with respect, because every shop sold the same XT-chassis.
That was the atmosphere of "your hard drive will fill up faster than your 5.25" floppies".

Cheers
Chris

[Argus]

No, my concern here was that IF I collected this off-the-shelf solution THEN I would pay extra to replace the HD with an SSDD AND it would take time to get the SSD (St John's gets its kit from Toronto, perhaps an extra week), AND I would be the proud owner of an HD which I wouldn't use.
That is, both an increased dollar cost and an increased delivery time.

Understood that from the beginning, if looking at that specific laptop. An alternative is to change it yourself, maybe later. Anyhow there must be several other laptops around.

As far as time goes, I figure that it will take me a week to do the various image backups, learn basic navigation around Win10, install my precious applications and batch files ...

Apart from the bit about extra time to get and install a SSD, for that specific laptop, or a rather short delivery time of another (laptop), I wouldn't consider time as an interesting variable in the "equation"; no matter which one, we all know that moving things to a new computer with a new OS will always take some time; some even consider some parts of it as fun, to get a clean start, learn some things etc. and other just want to get back to what they were working on as quickly as possible. If too much of the latter there is bound to be some frustration.

I didn't add any links to software methods, as I thought you as a Ctrl/Break-aficionado probably knew all about them. But here's one: What is the alternative to Pause and Break keys? - Appuals.com

(In the console, command line, we have Ctrl-C, Break, and Ctrl-Break as you know; but I understand you use 'em in several types of software.)

The Toshiba was purchased for $175 three or four years ago as a stop-gap measure.

Remember that.

(I agree about procrastination.)

... and then go shopping for a 40MB (yes!) drive.

Ooooh; we had several computers with 20 MB.

[HansV]

This is going to be like 'Four Yorkshiremen'

In the 1980's, I was a high school teacher. In 1982 or 1983, I visited an education fair. Personal computers featured heavily. The original IBM PC had been introduced only one or two years before, with a single-sided diskette drive (and a cassette tape interface).
One company proudly introduced hard disks for the IBM PC - a 5 MB model for 10000 guilders (about 4500 euros, but about 20000 euros if we take inflation into account), and a 10 MB model for 20000 guilders...

[HansV]

One thing to keep in mind if you're going to upgrade from Office 2003 to a newer version: VBA runs slower with each new version. Microsoft expects users to upgrade their computer together with their Office version so that they don't notice.

[ChrisGreaves]

The problem with an I3 is not just the processor. Usually, the speeds of the other components like the system bus are slower too. So, the whole thing just "feels" slow. If you are doing much work in Excel then an SSD would do wonders. Fragmentation is hot a big issue with SSDs. With an SSD you should let Windows do its thing and can eliminate any defrag from your regular routine.

Hi Joe.
Excepting when I had Big Jobs to run for clients (convert 10,000 WP5.1 docs to Word6 overnight) speed has never been a big issue for me. Most of my work in program development has been proof-of-concept at home followed by work on-site on as Real Machine.
In general my computers have not felt slow, even though they might be slow. Perhaps it is my way of thinking/working. When I set one of my programs running on a job that will take a minute, I use that minute to think about the program - how could I make it run faster, what features should I add, and so on. This is like working at a factory machine and using the 30-seconds to stretch one's back etc.
After about 1995 I pretty well gave up on fragmentation, except out of curiousity. My typing speeds are so slow that most files are loaded by the time my finger leaves the <Enter> key and gets poised to do some real work. I have been mystified by Excel's habit of saving a workbook in 18 fragments, but that is really curiousity value only. When a daily logging workbook loads up on the morning's boot, I'm in the kitchen pouring a coffee.

BTW, an i3 will run Windows 10. It just won't run it as well as something a little more capable.

Well! When did any version of Windows run as well as anything else
Cheers
Chris

[ChrisGreaves]

... we all know that moving things to a new computer with a new OS will always take some time; some even consider some parts of it as fun, to get a clean start, learn some things etc. and other just want to get back to what they were working on as quickly as possible. If too much of the latter there is bound to be some frustration.

Once I have completed a current set of timing runs on the DELL, the study will be transformed into the "Win10 lab". I plan to install the new laptop in there and make a serious effort to learn, trying not to issue a series of duplicate posts in the Win10 forum (grin).
I am definitely in the "just want to get back to what they were working on as quickly as possible" category, and am determined to have more than a "some frustration(more grinning)

...here's one: What is the alternative to Pause and Break keys? - Appuals.com

Thanks fr this, Argus. I will test them out.

... but I understand you use 'em in several types of software.)

Close to 100% interrupting out-of-control Word2003/VBA code that I have (badly) written.
For three years I went back to using sentinel files in my code ("IF exists Eraseme.txt THEN loop again ELSE Stop"). Once I bought the Toshiba I spent three years removing the tests (sour face). A double-cost.

... and then go shopping for a 40MB (yes!) drive.
Ooooh; we had several computers with 20 MB.

Yes indeed. My first was a 20MB, and even though i could do arithmetic at that age, I was fascinated at how many of those 5.25 floppies could be copied up there and then organised into a Real tree structure!

Cheers
Chris

[ChrisGreaves]

This is going to be like 'Four Yorkshiremen' ... (and a cassette tape interface).

Out in my shed is stored my Radio Shack MC-10; the first computer I owned. Used a serial port (I think) to hook up to my then wife's portable radio/player.
Now there's nostalgia for you (for the serial port!)
Cheers
Chris

[HansV]

I suspect that one of the boxes in my cellar still contains a slide rule...

[ChrisGreaves]

... VBA runs slower with each new version. Microsoft expects users to upgrade their computer together with their Office version so that they don't notice.

Thanks Hans, but this leaves me puzzled.
The i3 processor might be slower than the processor in either my DELL (no Break key) or my Toshiba (no Ctrl keys), but in general I assume that one advances the hardware with the software.
That is, any normal person(grin) buying a new computer today, or every five years, will be buying much faster hardware, and that this should mitigate the burden placed on it by the unavoidably newer software.
In this purchase I may be abnormal (and that's OK), but from your text it sounded to me as if the public in general is served successively slower software.

That said, am I going to grab a copy of Office 2019? I confess to find the one-time fee model more attractive than the rental model. Also you guys don't want to witness me being dragged succesively through Office2007, Office2010, etc.

Cheers
Chris

[ChrisGreaves]

I suspect that one of the boxes in my cellar still contains a slide rule...

Cellar? Ee! When I were a lad I use'ter dream about a crawl space!
CRAWL SPACE? We shared a root cellar wi'a puffin ...
Puffin? We only had a torn-off left wing of a left-wing seagull ...

I do have a copy of Nevil Shute's "Slide Rule" in PDF format on my hard drive though ...
Cheers
Chris

[Argus]

This is going to be like 'Four Yorkshiremen'

In the 1980's, I was a high school teacher. In 1982 or 1983, I visited an education fair. [...] One company proudly introduced hard disks for the IBM PC - a 5 MB model for 10000 guilders (about 4500 euros, but about 20000 euros if we take inflation into account), and a 10 MB model for 20000 guilders...

Around 1990 we upgraded one machine with 1 MB RAM (I had got to the end of what could be done optimizing autoexec & config; the secretaries got to keep their XT 8088s as they were); oh the difference, I could have more than one workbook open. It cost more than twice what I paid for 16 MB around 5 years later.

BTW, an i3 will run Windows 10. It just won't run it as well as something a little more capable.

Well! When did any version of Windows run as well as anything else

Compare installing updates to a Linux syst. with Windows; in the latter case you can go for lunch.

I suspect that one of the boxes in my cellar still contains a slide rule...

In the beginning there was ...
How many engineers with slide rules do you need today?

20200627A.jpg

Also you guys don't want to witness me being dragged succesively through Office2007, Office2010, etc.