Anybody know anything these new batteries?

[AlanMiller]

Sodium Battery Technology - New Proprietary Ceramic Material for Deep-Cycle Sodium Batteries (GALLERY)

Maybe Leif? It seems like just the ticket for our skyrocketing electricity prices in - set to at least double in the next year. I was wondering how hard it would be to build some circuitry to charge these overnight at cheap rates, then seamlessly switch from grid power to battery power when the high tariff time kicks in. It sounds like (in theory) you could grab all your power needs overnight.

Alan

Related article: New battery could change world, one house at a time

[HansV]

Looks interesting, but I gather that commercial production is still some four years away (and you know how these projected dates slip...)

[AlanMiller]

Looks interesting, but I gather that commercial production is still some four years away (and you know how these projected dates slip...)

Yep, I did see that. I was also wondering about the viability of using it the way I suggested. It may be that the circuitry, wiring and switching cost may double (or more) the price of the basic battery bank.

Alan

[Doc Watson]

Looks interesting, but I gather that commercial production is still some four years away (and you know how these projected dates slip...)

Yep, I did see that. I was also wondering about the viability of using it the way I suggested. It may be that the circuitry, wiring and switching cost may double (or more) the price of the basic battery bank.

Alan

Here in the US, the change to solar energy is starting to pickup in the residential sector. The utility companies have a system by which the homeowner can sell excess power back to the utility for credit towards their use from the grid or for $$$$. It does require some extra equipment to be installed with the system, but they figure that into the payback period. Batteries supply DC power, so if power is needed for an AC power system or a mixed AC/DC system, the battery power will need to be run through an inverter to change 12VDC or 24VDC power into 120VAC household current.

I can't see why the powers that be (no pun intended) in OZ don't have something similar for folks who wanted to store their solar power excess in batteries or a thermal mass in their home. In the early days of alternative energy, batteries and thermal mass were the ONLY ways to store excess power generated. The technology is still available to store power using batteries and switch over to that source as needed. Take a look at this Wikipedia article.

[viking33]

" The utility companies have a system by which the homeowner can sell excess power back to the utility for credit towards their use from the grid or for $$$$. It does require some extra equipment to be installed with the system, but they figure that into the payback period."
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I still wonder about that payback period thing. There are some windmill power companies here on the Cape that are touting a payback of about TEN years! (maybe, Along with federal subsidies )
My economics prof always said that ROI, ( return on investment ) should never exceed five years and ideally would be four or less. Or is that an outdated formula?

[AlanMiller]

Here in the US, the change to solar energy is starting to pickup in the residential sector. The utility companies have a system by which the homeowner can sell excess power back to the utility for credit towards their use from the grid or for $$$$.

We have a similar system here that I got sucked in to. All nice in theory but it appears to be being openly rorted and the government is either not doing anything about it, or is actually in on it.

Here's how it worked (or didn't work) for me. Through the grants, rebates etc. I got a 1.2kW system (1kW is the minimum to qualify for rebates) valued at $17K for about $2K. To get the solar feed-in tariff of ~64¢/kWh you need to get an "import/export" meter. Fine, I'll do that. Then... the cruncher... you have to sign a new contract with your power supplier. Regardless of which retailer you choose (they're all acting in collaboration) you have to change to "time of use" tariffs, meaning you pay about 3x the price between 7am and 11pm, and they virtually give it away while you're all asleep. They are (physically) able to do this because the new meter has the ability to monitor time of usage. By my calculations, I will never be able to pay off the $2K I'm out of pocket under this arrangement.

This all stinks for several reasons:
· Over the next few years, everybody will be on "smart meters" and timed tariffs, but not yet. Everybody will have to pay over $1K for such a meter. I put it to the supplier that I would now be exempt from this cost, since they are proposing using my import/export meter for exactly this purpose right now.
"No" I'm told "It's not a 'full' smart meter".
"OK, then clearly it can't be used as a smart meter if it isn't one."
"Yes it can".

· I put it to the supplier that they were effectively stealing government incentive money, intended to help people who had forked out for systems which will eventually help ease the grid load. They say it's the distributor who tells them what to charge. The distributor says they just sell to the suppliers, who can charge whatever they want - give it away if they like.

· The Electricity Ombudsman says "It appears to be happening but there's nothing we can do about it."

· I'm yet to throw it at my local MP. But it's becoming a common "fume" on talkback radio.

Basically, we're getting rorted. My hope with the batteries is to charge for free (near enough) overnight then disconnect the household load from the grid in peak tariff times... except for the solar export, which (although purchased on a nett basis) will be operating as gross - nett = gross - (zero usage). Who knows, I might trickle a bit of cheap stored battery power back in front of the inverter... just for compensation.

If I can't resolve this to a just outcome, I'm seriously considering selling the whole shebang on e-bay, to a purchaser in a country without all the rebates. They get a cheap system and I get my money back with hopefully a few $K profit. I thought it was such a great scheme, but it's so hard to anticipate every thief.

Alan

[Leif]

Sodium Battery Technology - New Proprietary Ceramic Material for Deep-Cycle Sodium Batteries (GALLERY)

Maybe Leif?

Not I, I'm more involved with the industrial control sector, rather than the storage side. But still interesting to read about!

In this country, it is well worth looking into investing in a solar installation. The predicted rate of return on the initial investment is around 13%, and it is certainly possible to borrow the money to do it at a much lower rate. It is almost a non-brainer.

For those in the UK interested, see Solar Feed-in Tariff UK | Renewable Energy Payments | Solarcentury. Nominally speaking, you get paid around 44p per unit you 'supply' and pay around 7p for each unit you use. And the 'Feed-In' tarrif is guaranteed for 25 years....

[ChrisGreaves]

If I can't resolve this to a just outcome, I'm seriously considering selling the whole shebang on e-bay, to a purchaser in a country without all the rebates. They get a cheap system and I get my money back with hopefully a few $K profit. I thought it was such a great scheme, but it's so hard to anticipate every thief.

Alan, I understand most of what you've written and can accept the rest, based on my opinion of you.
It seems as if this is one of those "bleeding edge of technology" capers, where the early-adapters pay for the later adapters. That is, until things settle down, no-one knows what the long-terms costs/bvenefits might be, so they guess a reasonable figure and "you takes your lumps".
In 1984 when I bought my first XT chassis it was $1,700; today a superior laptop can be had for about $400, same location.
I wasn't around when cars first came on the scene, but from what I've read, a similar pricing scheme ensued (plus the cost of a chauffeur!)

So how much of this, to the nearest 20% of cost$, would you put down to 'bleeding edge" and how much would you put down to blatant theft?
In Canada there are too many troughs for us to keep track of. It often seems as if the government (federal/provincial/municipal) only has to be taken out to lunch to endorse a multi-billion dollar scheme that will benefit us all, but primarily the proposers of the scamscheme.

[Guest]

I do think the costs of solar and wind power and battery storage will go down as more people start to use it. As far as the sodium batteries, I wonder how many you need to power a normal household? I do know many utility companies will give you a credit if you install this special thermostat that turns off for ten minutes during peak power times. So over a day it could turn off for 10 minutes every hour.

[AlanMiller]

I do think the costs of solar and wind power and battery storage will go down as more people start to use it. As far as the sodium batteries, I wonder how many you need to power a normal household?

IIRC they mentioned (somewhere?) a unit about the size of a domestic regrigerator with a 20kWh capacity.

I do know many utility companies will give you a credit if you install this special thermostat that turns off for ten minutes during peak power times. So over a day it could turn off for 10 minutes every hour.

How is that meant to work? Override the normal thermostat with a timed cutout period?

Alan

[AlanMiller]

In this country, it is well worth looking into investing in a solar installation. The predicted rate of return on the initial investment is around 13%, and it is certainly possible to borrow the money to do it at a much lower rate. It is almost a non-brainer.....

I note that there is no rebate scheme for the initial outlay. This was the BIG incentive in Australia.

For those in the UK interested, see Solar Feed-in Tariff UK | Renewable Energy Payments | Solarcentury. Nominally speaking, you get paid around 44p per unit you 'supply' and pay around 7p for each unit you use. And the 'Feed-In' tarrif is guaranteed for 25 years....

This is a very good ROI but possibly a lot of initial outlay to pay off.

I must concede that despite my misgivings of the "rip off" rort I mentioned, it appears that our summer power bill has roughly halved. I don't expect as good for the winter, of course, but I've been pleasantly surprised. I also have been able to download the full interval meter readings (half hourly over the billing period) and will be doing some analysis of same, to determine just how the whole shebang is performing.

Alan

[StuartR]

...How is that meant to work? Override the normal thermostat with a timed cutout period?

The stuff I have read about includes a contract where the power company is allowed to turn off specific loads remotely, in return for a significant discount on prices.

[AlanMiller]

The stuff I have read about includes a contract where the power company is allowed to turn off specific loads remotely, in return for a significant discount on prices.

... sounds a bit like our "smart meters" which have gained a bit of notoriety even before they've become standard issue. Mostly due to shoddy installation and obviously wrong billing readings (bills jumping from a few hundred to a couple of thousand!)

Alan

[StuartR]

I read about this in an article in New Scientist a few weeks ago, but I can't find it again on a quick search of their web site.

The idea is that because the cost of providing electricity depends on the peak load, small reductions in consumption at exactly the right time can lead to large savings. So if you connect non critical equipment to a source of power that the electricity company can turn off for up to 10 minutes at peak times they will be able to provide your power much more cheaply. If they could persuade lots of people to do this with large loads like air conditioning then it could make a big difference.

[AlanMiller]

Yep. Sounds like a good idea in principle. The idea behind our smart metering was to be able to control the entire household (I believe) remotely, but not according to some agreement, just at the whim of the supplier. Apart from blacking out areas if loads from the grid were excessive, they could brown out households with late bill payments (according to the computer) for instance. Their installation rollout has been met with some hostility. In Victoria it has actually been suspended.

Alan

[PJ_in_FL]

In our house in Florida, Progress Energy installed a box that controls the water heater to allow it to be turned off briefly during peak demand. For this, we are on a a "managed" rate schedule that gives us a discount each month.

[AlanMiller]

In our house in Florida, Progress Energy installed a box that controls the water heater to allow it to be turned off briefly during peak demand. For this, we are on a a "managed" rate schedule that gives us a discount each month.

What might be your savings per month, compared with the "normal" bill?

Alan

[BobH]

" The utility companies have a system by which the homeowner can sell excess power back to the utility for credit towards their use from the grid or for $$$$. It does require some extra equipment to be installed with the system, but they figure that into the payback period."
-----------------------------------
I still wonder about that payback period thing. There are some windmill power companies here on the Cape that are touting a payback of about TEN years! (maybe, Along with federal subsidies )
My economics prof always said that ROI, ( return on investment ) should never exceed five years and ideally would be four or less. Or is that an outdated formula?

Then why ever own a house?

[viking33]

Please tell me what company approves an investment based on a 25-30 year payback?

[BobH]

Please tell me what company approves an investment based on a 25-30 year payback?

Through my career, most things had to have an ROI of 4-5 years in the places I worked. Real estate capital was an exception that was extended over a longer period and was measured against income generation instead of ROI. Not being an accountant, I don't know what beans they counted to make the real estate measures.