"gas AND propane" inhibits towing of a car?

[ChrisGreaves]

Fire services said that because the car operates on both gas and propane, it cannot be dragged or towed out. It must be lifted up to be removed. (Toronto Star)

Huh?
What is it about "propane" or "gas AND propane" that inhibits towing of a car?
It seems to me that if the car were in neutral gear you and I could push it a little ways.
Why can't a tow truck pull it a little ways?
(And isn't there a screw-off valve on the propane tank?)
(And how old is this technology anyway?)

[HansV]

My first reaction was "Huh? Propane is a gas", but then I remembered the improper usage of "gas"...

[BobH]

Hmmmm!

I'd like to hear what - if any - justification the fire services people offer for not towing the vehicle. Propane can be dangerous in certain circumstances but I fail to see how an intact propane tank increases the risk over an unsealed (and sometimes vulnerable) gasoline tank, increases it so much as to make towing impossible. Perhaps it is the presence of a gasoline tank that makes the movement riskier.

Curious minds . . .

[ChrisGreaves]

Fire services said that because the car operates on both gas and propane, it cannot be dragged or towed out. ...

Then this (next) morning:
"A tow truck slowly removed the car around 5:40 p.m. after fire officials knocked out the remaining glass and cleaned up the site. There was some concern that the furniture in the hotel bar could have punctured the gas tank."

It still seems odd to me.
If a gas or propane tank is ruptured
(A) The delicate human nose can smell traces of substance and
(B) Better to have the vehicle explode outside a hotel, in the street, than inside the hotel.

But there again, what do I know? My business is logic.

[ChrisGreaves]

... I fail to see how an intact propane tank increases the risk over an unsealed (

Hi Bob.
I'm with you.

I suspect that we have some left-over legislation from the first day a propane tank was fitted to a vehicle, and everyone (except the designer) ran around waving their hands above their heads predicting that the world would come to an end.

We have regulations that state propane-powered vehicles shall NOT enter underground parking lots.

Huh? If they are that much more dangerous than gas tanks, why are we driving around in them?

There's the slim logic that propane is under pressure, so a small hole quickly empties the tank, whereas with gasoline, a small hole merely drips out liquid - which quickly becomes vapour and fills the cavity anyway!


I'm going to write to the paper about it ...

[BobH]

I know little about propane and only a bit more about gasoline. I DO know that gasoline - and one assumes propane, too - requires oxygen in the right proportion to gasoline vapors to ignite. Too many vapors or too little air and the gasoline will not light off.

I believe that propane is tanked under pressure making it a liquid if the pressure is sufficient (hence the name "LPG" or liquid propane gas). If a propane tank were damaged sufficiently to release its contents, there would be a pressure release. That release, caused by expanding gas and liquid gas evaporating, could cause a jet effect. Years ago when I was in the fire insurance business, one of the fire control demonstrations I got to witness was the extinguishing of a burning propane tanker. When it was breached there was an explosion and the trailer spun around and slid across the control area. Another property of propane is that it is denser than air. I suppose that if a sufficient number of propane vehicle tanks were confined in an underground garage there would be the danger that a sufficient quantity could 'pool' and become a threat to explode or flash over. I don't know what quantities are involved in propane vehicles, but most I've seen are relatively small and don't contain enough LPG to pollute a very large area.

Firemen use - and should use - an abundance of caution in all their risk management practices. It seemed unreasonable risk avoidance to me to be concerned about not towing a vehicle containing an undamaged propane tank, though.

Let us know what you find out, please.

[viking33]

Fire services said that because the car operates on both gas and propane, it cannot be dragged or towed out. It must be lifted up to be removed. (Toronto Star)
--------------------------------------------------------
Chris,
Where in the link did it mention that above item?
Did they edit the article after you brought this to their attention?

[ChrisGreaves]

Fire services said that because the car operates on both gas and propane, it cannot be dragged or towed out. It must be lifted up to be removed. (Toronto Star)
--------------------------------------------------------
Chris,
Where in the link did it mention that above item?
Did they edit the article after you brought this to their attention?

"A tow truck slowly removed the car around 5:40 p.m. after fire officials knocked out the remaining glass and cleaned up the site. There was some concern that the furniture in the hotel bar could have punctured the gas tank."

The story has been updated. The text (above) has replaced the original text.

Monday morning I'll contact my contact at The Star.

[viking33]

Fire services said that because the car operates on both gas and propane, it cannot be dragged or towed out. It must be lifted up to be removed. (Toronto Star)
--------------------------------------------------------
Chris,
Where in the link did it mention that above item?
Did they edit the article after you brought this to their attention?

"A tow truck slowly removed the car around 5:40 p.m. after fire officials knocked out the remaining glass and cleaned up the site. There was some concern that the furniture in the hotel bar could have punctured the gas tank."

The story has been updated. The text (above) has replaced the original text.

Monday morning I'll contact my contact at The Star.

That's what I thought. See... they do listen to you!

[ChrisGreaves]

That's what I thought. See... they do listen to you!

Not yet they don't.
I've not got around to asking them, but I will today.
The Star regularly updates an article, which can be quite confusing when the Comments(136) don't match the current state of the text.
As we have seen!

[ChrisGreaves]

What is it about "propane" or "gas AND propane" that inhibits towing of a car?

Bless the Star! My contact channelled my enquiry through to the reporter who replied to me:-

"One of the Star staff was on scene that day – she actually lives in the building. I was getting the story primarily through her and she said she doesn’t have a contact name for that firefighter but that the reason they gave was that they were initially worried some of the hotel furniture would puncture the tank if they moved it. I think that’s the best I can do, unfortunately. "