Shellac

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Jezza
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Shellac

Post by Jezza »

Hi my old friends, I hope you are all safe and well.

Can any of you please help me with translating American to English and vice versa please? :grin:

I have been following an American furniture restorer on YouTube in which he often says "I'll put one layer of shellac on the top" or "I will put another coat of shellac on tomorrow" In my vernacular, the use of "shellac" and French Polish are interchangeable and I have been dutifully following his tips without any issue. He normally puts his shellac on with a spray can or a brush, I cringe when I see him do this ( I am old school)

Then to my horror the other day he said "I am going to French Polish this top" and then went on to do a perfect wipe on/wipe off method that I was taught by my father.

So after that rather long explanation the question is "When an American says they are using shellac, is that the same as us Brits using varnish or polyurethane?"
Jerry
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GeoffW
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Re: Shellac

Post by GeoffW »

My understanding is that they are not the same thing.

I was taught that shellac and french polish (although French and Polish people may be horrified to be associated together so loosely) were the same thing. Shellac is dissolved in alcohol, and is typically applied over a number of layers. There are tradespeople whose speciality is french polishing, it can apparently be difficult to do a really good job. I believe the shellac both stains the underlying wood, and provides a polished finish after a number of applications.

In the examples you've given, those would appear to be shellac - the same as french polish. The varnish or polyurethane you've mentioned in the final paragraph are completely different to what you've mentioned before. They are typically completely clear, not alcohol based, and would be probably applied in a single layer on top of something which has been stained separately.

Shellac spray is new to me, but it is a thing, and again, applied in a number of applications - it's just different in its mode of application.

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Jezza
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Re: Shellac

Post by Jezza »

Thanks Geoff,

My dear old Dad taught me to french polish and it is now I am older and have a little bit more time on my hands have I returned to it. Below is an example of a restoration I did last year, I love french polishing, it is so cathartic. I got the inlay from an old sample which I relayed on this battered old cigar box and the polished it.
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Re: Shellac

Post by GeoffW »

That's a lovely job. Well done.

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Argus
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Re: Shellac

Post by Argus »

Hi Jerry, good to see you.

To add another dimension, outside American to English translation; :grin: my understanding from how the words are used here: french polish contains shellac, dissolved in alcohol as Geoff said (but we use and have used shellac as you know in a number of different applications). To me it all seems to be french polish but have never heard of using a spray can.

As for the "final touch" I, with my limited knowledge of English, interprets it as a difference between noun and verb; "I am going to French Polish this top"; i.e. doing it as one perhaps would expect it to be done all the time, using a linen cloth or similar wrapped around a pad.
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stuck
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Re: Shellac

Post by stuck »

Did you hear about the guy that died after drinking French polish?
Spoiler
Horrible death but a lovely finish
Ken
PS welcome back Jerry

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HansV
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Re: Shellac

Post by HansV »

Long time no see, Jerry! Nice to see you have a new hobby.
Best wishes,
Hans

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Nick Vittum
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Re: Shellac

Post by Nick Vittum »

As an American, with a little (but not extensive) experience in woodworking, and also a few years in hardware sales: In Americanese:
  • Shellac is an old-school product, not often used now because it doesn't penetrate and eventually peels. Whether that's the same alcohol-based product that a couple of the earlier folks referred to or not, I'm not sure.
  • Varnish is a mineral spirits-based product that is more penetrating and durable. Often used over oil-based stain, because the similar solvents make them compatable.
  • Urethane varnish is a modern substitute for varnish; it contains plastics which make a stronger surface coating.
  • Lacquer is an acetone-based coating similar to varnish that gives a very high finish, but not as strong.
  • "Shellac" is often used (especially by those who don't know what the differences are) as a vague catch-all term for any of these processes.
  • "Shellac" as a verb also means "clobber." As in, "Our team really got shellacked".
Last edited by Nick Vittum on 03 May 2020, 15:03, edited 1 time in total.
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DaveA
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Re: Shellac

Post by DaveA »

To add to Nick's post
a resinous substance (obtained from the lac insect) melted into thin flakes, used for making varnish.
Shellac
Shellac
Shellac is a resin secreted by the female lac bug on trees in the forests of India and Thailand. It is processed and sold as dry flakes (pictured) and dissolved in alcohol to make liquid shellac, which is used as a brush-on colorant, food glaze and wood finish. Shellac functions as a tough natural primer, sanding sealant, tannin-blocker, odour-blocker, stain, and high-gloss varnish. Shellac was once used in electrical applications as it possesses good insulation qualities and it seals out moisture. Phonograph and 78 rpm gramophone records were made of it until they were replaced by vinyl long-playing records from the 1950s onwards.
Both copies from a "Bing" search on "Shellac".
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Nick Vittum
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Re: Shellac

Post by Nick Vittum »

DaveA wrote:. . . Shellac functions as a tough natural primer, sanding sealant, tannin-blocker. . .
I had forgotten this part. It used to be used to seal knots on pine, spruce, fir—any wood that produces pitch—before painting, because otherwise the paint wouldn't take well to the pitchy areas, and in time the pitch world travel outward through the paint and the knot would show.
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Nick Vittum
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Re: Shellac

Post by Nick Vittum »

DaveA wrote:....from a "Bing" search on "Shellac".
Yes, yes, that too— "Bing" Crosby recordings were originally done in shellac. . .
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Argus
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Re: Shellac

Post by Argus »

Nick Vittum wrote:
DaveA wrote:. . . Shellac functions as a tough natural primer, sanding sealant, tannin-blocker. . .
I had forgotten this part. It used to be used to seal knots on pine, spruce, fir—any wood that produces pitch—before painting, because otherwise the paint wouldn't take well to the pitchy areas, and in time the pitch world travel outward through the paint and the knot would show.
That was my thought (among some other) when I said "but we use and have used shellac as you know in a number of different applications".
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Re: Shellac

Post by GeoffW »

What we need now is an episode of Kitchen Science revolving around shellac and varnish.

There is also this meaning:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shellacking" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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HansV
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Re: Shellac

Post by HansV »

Nick Vittum mentioned that meaning in Post=267918 higher up in this thread...
Best wishes,
Hans

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BobH
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Re: Shellac

Post by BobH »

Hello Jezza!

Long time no see!! (Americanism?) Good to see you haven't forgotten us.

I think you got your answers above. I will, however, try my hand at giving you one.

Shellac is a product made from shellac beetle resin obtained in Southeast Asis. The resin is flaked. The flakes are mixed in denatured alcohol with varying amounts of flake to volume of spirits thus the references to 2-pound cut or 4-pound cut, etc. referring to pounds of flakes per gallon of alcohol. One can mix his own or purchase it ready-mixed. The only American brand commonly available is by Zinsser. I don't know about the UK.

The mixed solution is applied often as a primer but sometimes in multiple coats. Shellac as a finish has the advantage of being easily repairable. It also dries quite quickly - unlike lacquer and polyurethane - thereby allowing multiple coats to be applied in quite a short time by comparison to the others.

French polish uses shellac in a rather higher cut and it is rubbed in and buffed out as you already know.

Hope this helps. BTW: You might look up Paul Sellers on Google. He teaches woodworking of all sorts online. He used to run a school in Waco (Elm Mott) Texas then returned to England where he now teaches classes occasionally and continues his online tutorials. He does shellac on many items.

Best regards . . .
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Re: Shellac

Post by jstevens »

Welcome back Jerry!

Does this mean you will be revisiting the kitchen table projects?
Regards,
John

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Re: Shellac

Post by GeoffW »

HansV wrote:Nick Vittum mentioned that meaning in Post=267918 higher up in this thread...
Sorry, I missed that.

I'll consider myself shellacked.

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Jezza
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Re: Shellac

Post by Jezza »

Wow, thanks for remembering me and your lovely responses.

Kitchen Table Science has moved on now and it is now Workbench Renovation which is one of my favourite pastimes having learnt the basics from my late father. I often buy items of furniture from a local reclamation centre (aka house clearance) and only if I immediately like it. I prefer late Victorian furniture and will stretch to Edwardian purely because the quality of the furniture is lovely

One of my favourites so far and has become a labour of love is that of a 1912 Clocking In Clock (Before you say it, I know it is Georgean :laugh: ) built by the International Time Recording Co Ltd. which some of you know eventually became a very large company called IBM.

Speaking to the last owner it had been taken out of a military factory in the early 1960's and then painted bright yellow (see picture) after it had a grey undercoat that I am sure was used on battleships as it was so hard to remove. The oak carcass was as dry as an old bone and so I used a 50/50 solution of white spirit and Tung Oil as a base, left it for a week, then gave another 50/50 coat after a light sanding. I then did 3 more coats of 100% Tung oil a week apart. The final Tung oil coat was left for a month to fully polymerise, it was sanded and then, using a fine brush, painted two coats of Garnet shellac (French Polish). After that I took 0000 wire wool dipped in bees wax and lightly rubbed it in to remove any "nits" from the shellac to produce, what I think, is a beautiful finish. The images attached are obviously the before and in between stages as I am about to complete the front glass door and when lockdown is over take the painted metal work to get sand lasted.

I hope you enjoy the pictures
before.jpg
after.jpg
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Jerry
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Argus
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Re: Shellac

Post by Argus »

That's great work.
Jezza wrote: (Before you say it, I know it is Georgean :laugh: )
In the last one it looks timeless.
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Re: Shellac

Post by HansV »

That's beautiful, Jerry!
Best wishes,
Hans