70th anniversary of the battle of Arnhem

[HansV]

On the 20th of September, 1944, the Allied forces started 'Operation Market Garden', a heroic but failed attempt to hasten the end of the Second World War. Thousands of paratroopers landed behind the German lines near Arnhem, in the eastern part of The Netherlands. The Germans put up far more resistance than expected, and after more than a week of fighting the Allied forces were defeated, at the cost of thousands of dead.
This event was commemorated today in the presence of many WWII veterans: Battle of Arnhem commemorated by paratroops.

[Rudi]

70 years...gosh... Some of those veterans must be mid 90's already.

An interesting observation.
Either this is a big coincidence, or these camouflage uniforms was designed from a VERY small pattern.
Notice how the pattern repeats on these two random uniforms...

_77724207_soldiers.jpg

[BobH]

During WWII there were approximately 16 million Americans in uniform (including an older brother of mine). I have known hundreds - if not thousands - of those men and women in my lifetime; but, alas, they are leaving us at alarming rates. Our newspaper today has an article about Honor Flights (an organization that sends veterans to the memorials in our national capital with all expenses paid). In the article they note that WWII veterans are dying at the rate of 640 each day. If any are younger than 90, they served very young and probably in the later years of the war.

Thank you! To each and every one of them.

[viking33]

70 years...gosh... Some of those veterans must be mid 90's already.

An interesting observation.
Either this is a big coincidence, or these camouflage uniforms was designed from a VERY small pattern.
Notice how the pattern repeats on these two random uniforms...

_77724207_soldiers.jpg

Where did you get this pic from, Rudi?
It also looks like the pattern is on two different styles of "camo" BDU
( battle dress uniform ). Notice the larger collar and the shoulder tabs on the man on the left. The man on the right looks like he has a shirt and the other has a jacket but using the same pattern?

[BobH]

Perhaps one is an officer or non-com and the other is a grunt.

I have read that the removal of hard lines and consistent light reflection is a large part of the value of camo. Camo patterns probably all repeat but the best of them repeat less often, perhaps.

Recently I read an article saying that camo BDUs have no real value above the old style OD fatigues. For camo to be really effective, it has to be adapted to the specific conditions of where it is worn; therefore pre-manufactured cloth doesn't work much better than solid colors.

[viking33]

Perhaps one is an officer or non-com and the other is a grunt.

I have read that the removal of hard lines and consistent light reflection is a large part of the value of camo. Camo patterns probably all repeat but the best of them repeat less often, perhaps.

Recently I read an article saying that camo BDUs have no real value above the old style OD fatigues. For camo to be really effective, it has to be adapted to the specific conditions of where it is worn; therefore pre-manufactured cloth doesn't work much better than solid colors.

What really surprises me is that camos have become the uniform of the day everywhere, even off the base. It's always been tradition\rules that if you go off base or at a any location that's even semi-formal, you wore Class A dress uniforms. Not so these days. Where is the pride in your branch of service?

[BobH]

What really surprises me is that camos have become the uniform of the day everywhere, even off the base. It's always been tradition\rules that if you go off base or at a any location that's even semi-formal, you wore Class A dress uniforms. Not so these days. Where is the pride in your branch of service?

I live very near Fort Hood. Many of those assigned there live off post. If they wore Class As when off post, there would be a severe logistics problem for changing.

I find that virtually all of them observe correct dress rules even in BDUs. Watching them doff and don head covers is an interesting occupation.

[Rudi]

Where did you get this pic from, Rudi?

Just follow Han's link in the first post. It shows a few other images of the 70th anniversary celebrations.
I find it apt that they were able to make the jump on the exact same location as in the original jump. That must have been special.

PS: Hey you two...quite with the military acronyms and talk...I can hardly understand what you are saying:
-- officer or non-com and the other is a grunt
-- Class A dress uniforms
-- correct dress rules even in BDUs
-- camo BDUs have no real value above the old style OD fatigues

[GeoffW]

I went to the shop to buy some camouflage clothes but I couldn't see them anywhere.

[BobH]

Where did you get this pic from, Rudi?

Just follow Han's link in the first post. It shows a few other images of the 70th anniversary celebrations.
I find it apt that they were able to make the jump on the exact same location as in the original jump. That must have been special.

PS: Hey you two...quite with the military acronyms and talk...I can hardly understand what you are saying:
-- officer or non-com and the other is a grunt
-- Class A dress uniforms
-- correct dress rules even in BDUs
-- camo BDUs have no real value above the old style OD fatigues

Sorry, Rudi!

It is the biggest regret of my life that I never served in the military, but I guess I've picked up a lot of jargon. I'll see if I can explain the terms as relevant to the army. There might be other terms to mean the same things in other branches of the military.

Officer's are commissioned and have special leadership and staff roles. Examples are lieutenants (one bar), captains (2 bars), majors (gold oak leaf), colonels (silver oak leaf or spread-winged eagle, aka a "full bird") and generals (1 star=brigadier general, 2 stars=major general, 3 stars=lieutenant general, 4 star=general).

There are some non-commissioned officers (non-coms) who are mostly sergeants (3 chevrons) and, I think, warrant officers.

A grunt is one who is below the rank of sergeant but generally refers to those below the rank of corporal. By the time one makes corporal (2 chevrons, right?) one presumes he has passed muster and usually is not called a grunt. The lowest ranks are privates (no chevrons at all) and privates first class (1 chevron).

Class A uniforms are those not worn for working duty or field duty. Think of it as the difference between a suit and tie and jeans and polo shirt. There are full dress uniforms which are the equivalent of formal attire. When you see soldiers being decorated at the White House they are wearing full dress uniforms.

As Viking Bob told us, BDU stand for battle dress uniform. This is the attire worn for every day work assignments or when in the field. It is the uniform you see when deployed troops are photographed, except then the BDUs are augmented by battle gear which includes body armor, helmets, weapons and other accoutrement. When BDUs are worn outside of field or deployment activities, they must still be worn correctly with buttons buttoned, trousers inside boots, appropriate headgear when out of doors (no soldier should ever be 'covered' while indoors-despite what you see in movies and TV shows, and, for that matter, soldiers generally are not required to salute when uncovered although some occasions call for it). That is what I meant by correct dress. We shan't go into UOD (uniform of day) and other dress rules.

Battle dress uniforms (I don't know how long that specific terminology has been in place) are all made of camouflage fabric. Each branch of the service has its own pattern. Marines (and USN Seals, I think) wear a pattern that is produced by digitizing the design and is known as 'digi-flage.' In the past, BDUs were plain olive-drab cotton cloth and were called 'fatigues.' These were the ordinary, every day dress of soldiers from the time of WWII, at least, until after the Vietnam era. Camo replaced fatigues about the time of Desert Storm, I think. I don't know how or when that term was chosen. Fatigues were a type of UOD and had rules for correct attire just as camo-BDUs do.

I'll ask Anne to correct me and amend my errors of omission and commission. I would also ask her to explain ranks and uniforms for the US Navy. Maybe she or someone else can speak to the same for the Air Force and the US Marines and the Coasties (US Coast Guard).

Remember, a strack grunt has it all together.

[Rudi]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the impressive details. More than I hoped for. The acronyms are what got me, but now that I have those, re-reading your conversation with Viking makes a lot more sense. The terms you Americans use are quite different to what we use). I served two years in the air force (compulsory duty at the time 1988-1989 - but now not applicable any more here in RSA). I still look back on those two years with fond memories (yet during the first of those two years....argh...basic training and lots of running, jumping climbing crawling and drilling....phew...) Anyways, the rankings have similarities in terms but the visual attributes and where they are positioned on the person or different here.

Cheers for the post.

[viking33]

BobH,
You posted pretty conclusive details but they are mostly Army "leaning."
Interestingly, the Army officer badges or collar attachments follow through to the Navy (ahem ) Marines and Coast Guard ranks except that the Navy and Coast Guard just call them differently. Admirals, Captains, Commanders. Commander Junior Grade, Lieutenant, Lieutenant Junior Grade and Ensign.
The non-coms in the Navy and CG are Warrant Officers and Petty Officers, ranking third class through Chief. Air Force ranks are about the same as Army.
BDUs came into being during the Vietnam era. There were a few bases where we were allowed to wear "civilian" clothes off base but not too many. Fatigues or BDUs.....NEVER. I think BDUs off base are sloppy attire, meant for the field or on base. BTW, all Navy personnel can wear a "bluish" type of camo but just why the sea going Navy needs camos, is beyond me. ( if you went overboard, you would WANT to be seen, not camouflaged )
Last but not least. Navy officers do have a formal set of dress uniforms with the stiff collars, epaulets and even a sword! Enlisted men and ladies have Class A dress "blues" and undress blues, without the white piping and other adornments that the dress blues have. The navy white uniforms are undress whites.
That's enough for this post!

[Rudi]

As mentioned above: Our rank system and insignia is a slight bit different...
Here is the ranks and insignia of the SA Defense Force. (Note: The graphics is way bad!!!)
Air force Insignia in a bit more detail

[BobH]

Howdy VBob!

Thanks for the update. I think the all-volunteer Army might be a contributor to the BDUs off-post result. At Fort Hood, I think the majority of personnel assigned live off post. The days of barracks and top sergeants in charge of them are pretty much gone. At 'Hood' most of the un-married personnel living on post live in micro apartments with a single roommate. Each has his own room and there is a kitchenette. Outside buildings are provided for storing their kit. There are no 'tops' to supervise them there. Because so many live off-post, I think the dress code has been relaxed to allow BDUs in public.

Help me, please, Navy ranks. Are these relatively close?
Ensign => 2nd Lt.
Lt. jg => 1st Lt.
Lieutenant => Captain
Commander jg => Major
Commander => Lt. Colonel
Captain => Brig. General
Admirals (what qualifiers?) => Generals (my guess is that a Rear Admiral is => to a brigadier, no?)

I have finally learned the insignia for each rank but have difficulty spotting it in all cases because BDUs (which are ubiquitous around here) have embroidered insignia on the placket of the jacket. More than once I've had to apologize to a female officer for staring at a place that would otherwise be inappropriate (even for a dirty old man like me). I'm told that it doesn't take long in the ranks to spot that insignia from 40 paces, but that is a skill I'll never master.

FWIW: I've had 2 close friends who had long and distinguished military careers. One - an old high school running buddy - joined the Navy after flunking his first semester in college. He was assigned to the boomer fleet and spent his entire career there. After his first enlistment he 'mustanged it', he qualified for and was sent to OCS (in New Brittain or maybe in Maine, IRC) then went to the Univ. of Utah where he eventually got 2 master's degrees courtesy of the USN. He stayed in and was discharged as a Commander jg (which I thought was called a Lt. Commander). Interestingly, we was hired immediately after discharge by a consulting company and did the exact same job for them that he had done in the Navy . . . fleet readiness inspection.

My other friend is a Vietnam veteran. His first tour ended with him as a platoon sergeant. On returning to the 'World' he applied for and went to Ranger school at Benning then Special Forces school at Bragg. He too went through OCS and went back to 'Nam with a butter bar. At the end of that tour, he was a captain of Green Berets and a HALO jumper who had a few dozen dark missions in Laos. The amazing thing about this man is that he is small of stature - he would have been too small in most times but not during the V-Era. He was shorter than my daughter and weighed a hundred pounds only in full combat gear. I have never known a steadier, more intelligent, more dedicated man. He earned 2 Bronze Stars and several Vietnamese decorations. I saw him go through a bout with kidney stones that would have had most men crying for their mamas. All he did was curl up on the floor and grimace. He was able to converse with me about contacting his wife and taking care of his vehicle as he was being taken to Darnell by ambulance. I can think of no other person I would rather have my back.

Enough of war stories and hero worship. I have known these 2 heroes very well and others less well who were no less heroes.

[StuartR]

I was on holiday in Tuscany recently and I visited a town called Arezzo. When I got home I was chatting to my (93 year old) Dad and he told me a story about when he was in Arezzo 70 years ago, during the 2nd world war.

He was the official Italian translator for his bit of the British army, having read an Italian phrase book on the boat from Port Said to Italy, and when they arrived in Arezzo he looked around for some food and drink for his unit. The only person he could find was an old Italian man with a donkey cart so he asked in his very polite Italian whether there was a café where they could buy some food or a glass of wine.

The man replied in a very heated tone that the Germans had taken all the wine, all the bread and all the food, and he was so astonished to be asked politely where they could buy some wine that he gave my Dad a whole barrel of Chianti, that he had had hidden in the woods. My Dad says that he and 5 mates shared the barrel over a week and had great memories of Arezzo.

[viking33]

A couple of corrections in the officer list ( yours and mine )
Lieutenant Commander ( not JG ) =Major
Captain = Colonel
Admirals in order of number of stars
Rear Admiral [lower half]
Rear Admiral [middle]
Vice Admiral
Admiral
The two Rear Admirals are kind of confusing but I think it's a seniority ranking.
Here is a good Wiki link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... k_insignia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Those are some kind of great service people you mention. Would be terrific to sit down with them and swap "War Stories!" I'm sure it is an honor to know them.

While we are talking about the high ranking servicemen, I have to mention my wife's cousin, Four Star General Air Force, Raymond Johns. He has recently retired and is living in Hawaii but his record is truly outstanding! His last command was the Air Force Air Mobility Command. We still speak in awe of "little Ray" being a Four Star General!
Some puffery here about Ray.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_E._Johns,_Jr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Probably a better link:
http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/Biographies/D ... ns-jr.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[BobH]

Wow! A General in the family!

General Johns had a very interesting career.

Please extend to him my personal gratitude for his service.

[viking33]

Wow! A General in the family!

General Johns had a very interesting career.

Please extend to him my personal gratitude for his service.

Thanks, Bob. Will do.
Apparently, to get the 4th star, the promotion has to be approved by Congress. We were all waiting rather impatiently to hear the news, since we know how fast our Congress operates on some items! After some months, it finally came through and he was assigned to his most recent command. Did a great job and a couple of years later, he retired and must be sipping Pina Coladas on the beach. Deservedly!

[Rudi]

A hearty congrats from me too. That is quite an honour for Raymond and the whole family.

[Leif]

I went to the shop to buy some camouflage clothes but I couldn't see them anywhere.

Well here's another eye test for you:

x.jpg

Spot anything in the landscape?