Frequent system hanging after upgrading hardware

[Thebluehydra]

Hi there,
A week or so ago I updated my system's hardware with a new CPU (I7 7700K), new motherboard (MSI B250M PRO VD) and new RAM (Corsair Vengeance LPX, 2x16GB DDR4 @2400MHz). These were the only parts I replaced in my system keeping the power supply, case and my HDD & SSD combo. The performance of the system has boosted significantly and while there were some rough patches at first with blue screens, a few driver updates sorted that out. I mainly use my PC for gaming and web applications (such as browsing and using online apps for my college work).

That said, one issue has so far proved to be insurmountable. At what appears to be pure random, the system will hang for less than a second and then resume operations as if nothing happened. It doesn't always occur on startup, but once it happens there's no real way to stop it beyond reseating the RAM entirely. This is especially frustrating because I've found no real clear pattern of behaviour which would clue me in as to how I could solve the issue. That said, I have reason to believe that my RAM may be faulty. Running memtest.exe warned me that the memory was faulty, though at the time I didn't really take note of the issue because I was working on other computer bugs at the time. Strangely, memtest.exe has stopped functioning since running it once, instead producing this error message:

Code: Select all

[Window Title]
F:\Windows\winsxs\x86_microsoft-windows-b..re-memorydiagnostic_31bf3856ad364e35_6.1.7601.23471_none_da82435e7c30a828\memtest.exe

[Content]
The F:\Windows\winsxs\x86_microsoft-windows-b..re-memorydiagnostic_31bf3856ad364e35_6.1.7601.23471_none_da82435e7c30a828\memtest.exe application cannot be run in Win32 mode.


[OK]

There are other factors which I've noticed may or may not contribute to this error;
-Applications and web pages which produce sound such as YouTube, Spotify and video games seem to have a higher chance of evoking the issue.
-The amount of applications running does not seem to influence when the hanging commences.
-Memory usage does not show any abnormal signs in Task Manager's resource monitoring whenever a hang occurs.
-Hangs can range from less than a second to 1-2 seconds at a time. Longer hangs result in applications experiencing serious faults.

I've tried multiple options to try and repair the situation. Device Manager informed me that all drivers are up to date. I've tried using MSI's "Memory Try It!" feature which supposedly boosts compatibility, though all three stages of this system seem to be ineffective (and more often than not result in new flaws which I don't even want to try fixing). Altering my memory's speed does not have an effect either. Reinstalling programs would be massively inefficient since most of my games are several dozen gigabytes in size and/or have sensitive data which I can't copy elsewhere nor afford to lose.

I was going to get in contact with Corsair support but after seeing they want shipping information just to access the support page, I was a little turned off. I thought I'd instead try asking around the internet for any advice and my old man suggested this forum. So... thanks in advance for any tips.

[viking33]

I admit that I have only given your post a quick read BUT To me at least, everything is shouting, "Memory Problem".

If i read it right, you have two memory sticks on the MB. correct?
If so, try removing one of the sticks and rebooting.
Still see the problem? Move the same stick to the other slot and reboot.
Still NG? Remove the first stick and replace with the second one.
Go through the same routine with the second and see if the problem goes away. If so, you have a bad memory stick, Contact Corsair for replacement.
BTW, make sure the sticks are solidly seated in their slots. Memory sticks can seem to be inserted OK but there are a lot of connections made with each one and it's easy to give you bad time.
Good luck..

[Thebluehydra]

I admit that I have only given your post a quick read BUT To me at least, everything is shouting, "Memory Problem".

If i read it right, you have two memory sticks on the MB. correct?
If so, try removing one of the sticks and rebooting.
Still see the problem? Move the same stick to the other slot and reboot.
Still NG? Remove the first stick and replace with the second one.
Go through the same routine with the second and see if the problem goes away. If so, you have a bad memory stick, Contact Corsair for replacement.
BTW, make sure the sticks are solidly seated in their slots. Memory sticks can seem to be inserted OK but there are a lot of connections made with each one and it's easy to give you bad time.
Good luck..

Hi, thanks for the suggestion.
I'm currently doing what you've suggested, I only have one RAM stick in use in the second memory slot of my mobo. So far things seem smooth, but I've only given it an hour of use. I might give it longer and try running different combos of programs.
Curiously both CPU-Z and Task manager seem to think that my mobo has 4 slots for ram, when there's physically only two. Do you think this could have any bearing on the issue?

[viking33]

Didn't you get a manual with the MB?
It shpuld show the layout of the board. If no manual, you could go to the manufacturers website for the info.

[Argus]

I agree with Bob, a first thought is memory.

Sometimes when you have new hardware you can find that CPU-Z, and similar software, hasn't been updated to include info (or one could be using an old version of the software).

That said your micro-ATX MB (and CPU) isn't a week or two old.

A long time ago I had one case of "ghost RAM" in one of the memory banks. 3 banks and I had 256 MB in the first two, it didn't recognise the one in the second slot, but reported 512 MB "ghost RAM" in the third; SMBIOS reported a total of 768 MB instead of 512 MB ... (I think it was some odd case with BIOS vendor's SMBIOS, or some standard data used on previous builds.)

And I've had another case where I did as Bob mentioned, and you are trying now, testing individual RAM sticks; one in the pair was bad (back then you could also get some indication from computer speaker beeps (although they sometimes changed what they meant).

[StuartR]

Curiously both CPU-Z and Task manager seem to think that my mobo has 4 slots for ram, when there's physically only two. Do you think this could have any bearing on the issue?

I just had a quick look in the manual for that motherboard. It has two DIMM slots, but it also has one M.2 socket that supports Intel Optane memory. That still doesn't add up to four sockets.

[Argus]

Curiously both CPU-Z and Task manager seem to think that my mobo has 4 slots for ram, when there's physically only two. Do you think this could have any bearing on the issue?

After some more coffee.
You have a micro-ATX, and you already know it has only two DIMM slots; we sometimes see that on the smallest boards, and sometimes with cheaper chipsets or models (usually no problem since you can have plenty of GBs anyhow).
(For example, Asus B250M-A, another mATX board with the same chip, has four DIMM slots.)

As mentioned software can pull data from SMBIOS; it's possible, however, that it can't determine the physical layout, if a manufacturer has decided to not use the full potential of the components in a particular model.
So, in this case I think the software reports what is possible with the chipset, Intel B250.

See these rather old threads:
https://superuser.com/questions/370212/ ... -sl/370215" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.overclockers.com/forums/sho ... -Ram-Slots" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Thebluehydra]

As mentioned software can pull data from SMBIOS; it's possible, however, that it can't determine the physical layout, if a manufacturer has decided to not use the full potential of the components in a particular model.
So, in this case I think the software reports what is possible with the chipset, Intel B250.

I've updated both my chipset drivers and CPU-Z, yet it and Task manager still report my mobo supporting 4 ram slots.
As an aside, I'm still carrying on with the individual ram stick tests, currently I have one stick in the second slot. The stuttering persists, but to a noticably lower degree, which is interesting.

[Argus]

I've updated both my chipset drivers and CPU-Z, yet it and Task manager still report my mobo supporting 4 ram slots.

I don't think updating drivers will change anything related to software reporting a different amount of RAM slots; and I think it is very unlikely that it has anything to do with what you experience.

As I said, if one is interested in details about say a new (very recent) CPU it can be a good idea to update software such as CPU-Z. (I don't know how it works now, but I think it could happen that if one bought a new CPU as soon as it was released there could be some minor error in the data; on the other hand, people interested in such details tend to already know all the facts and use the software as confirmation. ) That's not the case here, since the hardware is - and I'm sorry to say this, but we all experience it when we buy hardware - a generation or two old.

Let's go back to your main issue. Memory is still very much a prime suspect, but there can perhaps be some other areas worth looking at.

You have an unlocked processor, possible to overclock, but a motherboard with one of Intel's "enterprise" chipsets (B, C, Q). Some years ago it wasn't possible to overclock a CPU unless one was using a "high performance" board, such as in the Z range. I know that it was possible in some cases a couple of CPU generations ago (with for example H chips). Are you running all settings at default values, including RAM (ah, notice you said @2400MHz)?

Cooling. I've seen several, plenty, of reports that 7700K can run hot, and with sudden heat spikes. Obviously, most of these are related to overclocking, but it should work with adequate cooling (there's a lot written about this, with different opinions; some CPUs ran a bit hot when Intel changed thermal interface material). (There were similar reports, although not as many perhaps, with Haswell, and some "delidded" their CPUs; Intel released a Haswell Refresh a year later (breaking the Tick-tock model), updated on several points, including new thermal interface material). Have you looked at temperatures?

BIOS. Some year ago, 2017, it was discovered that there was a "critical" flaw in Kaby Lake (and Skylake) hyper threading, and it was fixed with a BIOS update. Usually there is no idea to update BIOS just to "have the latest", it depends on what has been changed; with a recently released motherboard (first months - year) however it is a very good idea to keep an eye on BIOS updates, since they may improve compatibility with memory and other components, such as SSDs, and M2 devices etc. Later on it is usually to add compatibility with more recent CPUs (if any has been released) and if one isn't going to change CPU there isn't much idea updating the BIOS. (We sometimes also see very rare security updates.) Since the release of the MB MSI has, as expected, released several updates to BIOS for your motherboard, including updated micro code that could be related to the abovementioned flaw in hyper threading (and later updated micro code for security vulnerabilities, probably some Spectre/Meltdown update). It could be worth looking at BIOS as well; are you using a recent version?

PSU. In your new build you kept some parts, usually no problems. The power supply, is it up to the task?

Still, I would test the memory in different combinations. Also, you said memtest stopped working, you are running it from a USB stick?

[Thebluehydra]

I've updated both my chipset drivers and CPU-Z, yet it and Task manager still report my mobo supporting 4 ram slots.

I don't think updating drivers will change anything related to software reporting a different amount of RAM slots; and I think it is very unlikely that it has anything to do with what you experience.

As I said, if one is interested in details about say a new (very recent) CPU it can be a good idea to update software such as CPU-Z. (I don't know how it works now, but I think it could happen that if one bought a new CPU as soon as it was released there could be some minor error in the data; on the other hand, people interested in such details tend to already know all the facts and use the software as confirmation. ) That's not the case here, since the hardware is - and I'm sorry to say this, but we all experience it when we buy hardware - a generation or two old.

Let's go back to your main issue. Memory is still very much a prime suspect, but there can perhaps be some other areas worth looking at.

You have an unlocked processor, possible to overclock, but a motherboard with one of Intel's "enterprise" chipsets (B, C, Q). Some years ago it wasn't possible to overclock a CPU unless one was using a "high performance" board, such as in the Z range. I know that it was possible in some cases a couple of CPU generations ago (with for example H chips). Are you running all settings at default values, including RAM (ah, notice you said @2400MHz)?

Cooling. I've seen several, plenty, of reports that 7700K can run hot, and with sudden heat spikes. Obviously, most of these are related to overclocking, but it should work with adequate cooling (there's a lot written about this, with different opinions; some CPUs ran a bit hot when Intel changed thermal interface material). (There were similar reports, although not as many perhaps, with Haswell, and some "delidded" their CPUs; Intel released a Haswell Refresh a year later (breaking the Tick-tock model), updated on several points, including new thermal interface material). Have you looked at temperatures?

BIOS. Some year ago, 2017, it was discovered that there was a "critical" flaw in Kaby Lake (and Skylake) hyper threading, and it was fixed with a BIOS update. Usually there is no idea to update BIOS just to "have the latest", it depends on what has been changed; with a recently released motherboard (first months - year) however it is a very good idea to keep an eye on BIOS updates, since they may improve compatibility with memory and other components, such as SSDs, and M2 devices etc. Later on it is usually to add compatibility with more recent CPUs (if any has been released) and if one isn't going to change CPU there isn't much idea updating the BIOS. (We sometimes also see very rare security updates.) Since the release of the MB MSI has, as expected, released several updates to BIOS for your motherboard, including updated micro code that could be related to the abovementioned flaw in hyper threading (and later updated micro code for security vulnerabilities, probably some Spectre/Meltdown update). It could be worth looking at BIOS as well; are you using a recent version?

PSU. In your new build you kept some parts, usually no problems. The power supply, is it up to the task?

Still, I would test the memory in different combinations. Also, you said memtest stopped working, you are running it from a USB stick?

oh man this is a big one lmao, let me unpack this:
The CPU: Funny you should mention that, because as of recently I've noticed that its speed is slightly above the base level of 4.20ghz, mostly hovering around 4.36-4.39. I don't know why this is happening, I haven't told it to overclock to any degree. I don't suppose this discrepency could be responsible? As for RAM speed I've had that at 2133mhz (the top speed of my previous RAM) and 2400 (top speed of this new RAM). Both have stuttering, neither have any changes on the frequency or severity.
(As an aside, i'm running the second stick on its own now after the first continued stutering in both slots)

Cooling: It definitely gets hot down there, but not so hot that it should cause errors. My case has two fans on its own and is plenty venilated, while my CPU fan is the hyper 212 evo from cooler master; a very highly rated fan in all reviews I've seen. That said I suppose it is something to watch out for; I'll keep Speedfan running in the background to monitor my temps.

BIOS: I have to be honest, the thought of tampering with the bios is a little intimidating. I checked it and the date was from 2016 so I suppose that's quite out of date, but I've never tried to update a bios before and I don't know anyone who has. I don't really want to be mucking about with stuff I don't understand.

PSU: It's funny you should mention, my PSU was quite overpowered for my previous built. It's an evga 600w box which i mostly got because it was a good deal. I haven't heard anything from my friends about the PSU being a possible culprit, though maybe it's something to consider?

As for memtest, I have no idea. It's running from my HDD rather than my SSD (which has the os on it), but if that would prevent it from running why did it work correctly for the one time?

[Argus]

Here's another big one.

Cooling
Yes, Cooler Master's 212 EVO has a good reputation as an entry-level/low-end "enthusiast" CPU cooler (or replacement for stock fan). It's been around some time & got good reviews, there are several others now, as well as in other price segments. I asked since you have a high performance CPU, which might run a little hot. (Also, when one spends quite a chunk on CPU and RAM/graphics I think it's important to not forget some other parts, such as PSU or cooling, that might be vital to performance and health of the computer.) At stock speed I guess it should be fine, but I know nothing about your ambient temps and other hardware etc.

As for the CPU, some comments since you mentioned it; as you say it has a base frequency of 4.2 GHz (turbo 4.50 GHz); I see no problem with it changing. Fixed frequency would mean changing some settings, usually in the BIOS; even if it might lead to better performance in some cases, it certainly won't save energy running the CPU at full speed when doing "nothing"; but all that depends on what one wants to achieve.

The standard is that it will scale from I think 800 MHz to 4.2 GHz (multiplier changing 8-42, and voltage etc.) on individual cores, then it's usually possible to tweak this to overclock without having a fixed frequency, but we are not talking overclocking. Motherboard manufacturers might also have other software for this. Things get a bit complicated since Microsoft's OS might also have a say if one changes some energy settings in the Control Panel (they are not all about when to turn off the screen or hibernate, or for laptops). Changing from Balanced to High Performance (with default values in BIOS) changes the CPU from scaling between its lowest to its base frequency and instead runs at turbo frequency (say, instead of changing between 800-3500 MHz, and using 3900 MHz if needed, it will run at 3900 MHz all the time). A bit nuts if you are reading emails.

PSU
After my comments in earlier posts I saw that you had another thread some year ago I hadn't seen. Is it the same PSU?

In your other thread you discussed the PSU's performance, some software was mentioned (mainly for temp and fan control). I use a small simple monitoring tool, HWMonitor (from the same place where you got CPU-Z). It can also show min & max values, as long as it is running. That said, obviously with major troubles or if the computer shuts down or hangs one won't be able to check the values. Also, such software may sometimes have trouble giving correct values.

More can be said about power supplies, but I would look at memory (nothing wrong with Corsair Vengeance per se, I've good experience of their low profile RAM), and BIOS changes for you MB; have you checked MSI forums?

Memtest
I know there have been some with similar name; I was thinking about MemTest86 (or MemTest86+), there was an old one that later on was developed, these you would run from a USB stick.

BIOS
I can't tell you what to do. In general I wouldn't run on a "version 1.0-1.x" BIOS (or whatever the start version is), but it's easy to say if one has updated BIOS several times. I've had no problems with that (so far) with Asus and some other brands. It should be pretty straight forward (it can be done in some different ways, but usually: download, extract from zip to, or copy to, an empty FAT32 USB stick, and boot with it, then follow the instructions). That said, it is of course important to use the correct update. They have a YouTube video. (And MSI has a forum if one has specific questions about MSI BIOS updates.)

I don't know if you have seen the list of BIOS updates (you usually look at the version number).

[Thebluehydra]

I wouldn't worry too much about that old thread. I eventually managed to iron that out. Something I do have to wonder tho; that intermittent crashing bug has more or less the exact same symptoms. I wondered perhaps if it could be that same glitch but manifested as infrequent temporary system hanging, but I don't think that's very likely.

I've identified another symptom; audio drivers. Every time I update them the system runs perfectly fine like a dream, for a day maybe. Then I turn it off for the night and come back the next morning, and the error slowly starts to creep in after about an hour or so of usage. What's bizarre is that it's not instant, it gradually builds up over the course of hours, days etc until it reaches a high point where it's stuttering every couple of minutes or so. Update the audio drivers again (with the same package, no less) and it's back to being perfect and the cycle begins anew.
One of my online friends suggested that Windows might be looking at the newly installed drivers and scrapping them for default ones, but I have no idea how that would work. I've tried two different downloads - one from MSI's own website and another from Realtek (who I guessed had a part in my MB's audio driver because of the presence of Realtek HD Audio Manager on my system), both have the exact same pattern.

[Argus]

Well, it's always good to check the hardware (and changes in software), when a computer hangs. Memory problems can sometimes be difficult to pinpoint, and sometimes it's very easy if the computer won't boot with one or several modules installed (and as mentioned there are several memory test programs out there).

Have you looked at MSI's forum? It's far more likely that you will find someone running a rather recent MSI board with DDR4 memories there, and obviously, people using their drivers.

As for BIOS, as I mentioned earlier there have been several updates with among other things improved memory compatibility, several times. (True, if one is running standard memories it probably should work, and if they already are on their QVL they definitely should, though these lists are often rather short.) Even support for the odd Intel Optane, mentioned by Stuart, wasn't added until 2017, and later fixed in another update. Then there's the hyperthreading flaw (and security updates). The reason I mentioned BIOS at all, is that it comes very early in the process, long before OS and drivers, when detecting hardware.

Windows 10; I think you can prevent it from downloading drivers for different devices if running the Pro version (or above) and changing Group Policy. It's also possible to do a register edit on other versions.

[Thebluehydra]

I've given MSI's forum a scouring but I didn't really find anything which would solve my problem. I might make an account there and ask about but their forums seem a lot messier than here. There's not really a "troubleshooting" board or anything, the closest I could do is ask on the mobo board about my issue but I'm beginning to suspect this may not be a hardware issue at all.
I'll try giving my BIOS an update at some stage, but I'd want assistance with it because god knows I'd find some way to mess it up. I'll wait around until my old man is available

[Argus]

It could very well be a drivers issue; audio as you mentioned, graphics (or even LAN). (Then we have what gamers might experience, and we can add settings to the mix.) So far only suggestions have been discussed in the thread, not much troubleshooting. A bit more details about what you experience might change that.

It's true that they, usually, don't have general troubleshooting forums at those sites.

Then you have forums that zoom in on an OS and all things related. I don't know if you've seen these threads (discussing audio drivers):
https://www.tenforums.com/sound-audio/5 ... rsion.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.tenforums.com/sound-audio/1 ... river.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Apart from those, there's plenty related to "stuttering", "micro freezing" etc. as you might have seen, which can be related to drivers.

(I think there's also some tool from MSFT to temporarily prevent a driver update from reinstalling, I don't know if it has been updated; but as mentioned there are other ways.)