is synctoy all I need?

[stuck]

You will probably be horrified to learn that in all my years of tinkering with PCs I've never had a regular back up regime. Mainly because until now I've never had anything of any real worth on my home PC. Mind you, I have always kept my data on at least a separate partition if not a separate HDD so when ever I've had serious OS issues I've just hosed the C: drive knowing my data was elsewhere.

Now though I've got a lot of digital photos. So far I've 'backed-up' these by keeping a separate copy on a separate device (my notebook) but was getting full. With the assistance of an Amazon token I have just received a 2Tb external drive. It came with basic backup software that allows you to snapshot folder(s) now, set a scheduled task or constantly run so that every time a file on a watched folder changes it is backed-up.

I used the snapshot option on the picture folders and it took ages to complete. Unsurprising really, there are many Gb of pictures in those folders and although the new toy is USB3 my hardware is only USB2. When the task did complete I found that the software had not done anything clever, it had merely mirrored the picture folders and files onto the external drive. Yes, it had buried them under a main folder that identified the source PC and the date & time but I don't need dedicated software to do that, I know how to use Explorer.

Which then prompted me to think of Synctoy. Given a destination folder on the external HDD I could use Synctoy to update that folder from my main HDD every time I offloaded files from my camera. I would be simple and it would work. I've found simple is always good.

However, I can fell Bigaldoc spinning in his grave at the prospect of me not having a proper (Acronis / Shadow Protect / Macrium Reflect) regime in place when I've got so many pictures I don't want to lose.

So Loungers, should I stick with my 'simple' keep a mirror on the external HDD using Snyctoy idea or should I use 'real' back-up software? If the latter, what's the limitations of Macrium Reflect Free?

Ken

[HansV]

I'd say that SyncToy would be fine for your purpose.
According to Macrium Reflect Free Edition, the free version provides disk imaging and cloning, but not file and folder backup, so it may not be suitable for you.

[viking33]

I stick with my buddy, BigAlDoc and vote for an Imager of choice. I use Acronis True Image, so can't speak for or against Macrium. I had a HUGE problem with Shadow Protect when it first came out, so went back dutifully to TI ever since.
You can't beat a bit for bit exact copy of things.

[jonwallace]

Coincidentally, I've just installed the free Allway Sync on TOH's laptop (running Windows 7 Home) specifically so it can "watch" her Pictures folder and backup new files automatically to our synology NAS box. It looks a bit clunky, but does the job (so far - in case of failure, I'll post back).

Interesting features include a mechanism for identifying if a removable drive has changed letters (I've not tried this)

[PaulB]

Regardless of the S/W you choose, you may want to consider getting a USB3 card for your PC. I purchased (CA$25.00) and installed one and cut backup times by a factor or 5 or 6.

Like Big Al, I use ShadowProtect to do weekly full backups (~230 GB backed up in ~35 minutes) and hourly incrementals in under 1 minute. After initial setup this is all done with no intervention on my part.

[Rudi]

Hi Stuck,

I have played around with many backup apps and have used Synctoy and many others, and my personal conclusion (and opinion) is that two backup apps stand out above Synctoy if firstly: Syncback and second: FreeFileSync. I used FreeFileSync for a while, but later decided to stay with Syncback as it was so much more flexible, quicker, easy to use and stable. It is a wonderful app and I have been using it for years without any issues. You can store multiple profiles and backup all or individual ones at any time...or you can set it to do so by schedule.

Another tip, especially since you want to back up an external hard drive is to go into Windows Disk Management and once your external hard drive is plugged in, change the drive letter and path so it always uses a specific drive letter. If you have a profile set up in Syncback and for argument sake you have created the profile to use X as the external drive letter, the moment you plug in your hard drive, windows assigns X to it and you simply run the profile. You can instruct Syncback to either backup files to the external drive, or synchronize between the PC and drive or mirror the data which is basically a one way synchronization.

I'd recommend that you take Syncback through a trial run if you have not tried it before. It is certainly one of the better backup apps, since its highly customizable and totally FREE!

[stuck]

Thanks for the feedback. I'll start with John's suggestion (allwaysync) as a painless way of 'watching' my picture folders is that's what I want. I'll also look at Rudi's suggestion (Syncback) and see how that works.

I still haven't dismissed 'real' backups but simple mirroring means I can connect the external drive to my parents laptop and see the pictures (I've been scanning some old 35mm transparencies that my father took in the 1960s ) without the need to restore the backup before the files can be viewed. Also the source drive is only a 1 Tb unit while the external one is

While buying a USB3 card is an idea, I've first got to decide how to deal with XP's fast approaching end-of-life. My hardware only has a P4 CPU (a P4HT 3.4GHz to be precise) and 3Gb RAM. Zippy enough for my needs but perhaps it's time to retire it from on-line duties and invest in a full 64-bit system that includes USB3. As ever, (lack of) money will be the driver here.

Ken

[John Gray]

I use AllWay Sync and SyncBack SE for copying files for backup, and slightly prefer the latter.
I abandoned MS SyncToy when I had a network glitch such that it thought the destination drive was empty, and proceeded cheerfully to match this state on the source drive.

Shadow Protect and Macrium Reflect (Pro) are much more powerful than you need for your specific task, but you might want to look at either if you think you may need to restore a Windows installation, or move it to disparate disk hardware.

With all these programs there can be a learning curve because of the significant number of options available.

[BobH]

Could one of you experts explain the difference between a full image backup and other alternatives?

I have tried using Acronis to make image backups and incrementals, but each time I have lost data due to my inability to understand the Acronis instructions or interface or to failure of the software to perform (more like the former than the latter). I found it frustrating that I could see an Acronis 'image' on my backup drive but could do nothing to access data files within it. I think I still have a couple of Passport Ext HDD with images on them that should contain data . . . data that I should like to retrieve but do not know how and fear that my like of knowledge will cause the loss of the data rather than its retrieval.

Anyone up to taking on the education of an old bit twister?

[viking33]

Could one of you experts explain the difference between a full image backup and other alternatives?

I have tried using Acronis to make image backups and incrementals, but each time I have lost data due to my inability to understand the Acronis instructions or interface or to failure of the software to perform (more like the former than the latter). I found it frustrating that I could see an Acronis 'image' on my backup drive but could do nothing to access data files within it. I think I still have a couple of Passport Ext HDD with images on them that should contain data . . . data that I should like to retrieve but do not know how and fear that my like of knowledge will cause the loss of the data rather than its retrieval.

Anyone up to taking on the education of an old bit twister?

What version of TI do you have, Bob?
From within the Acronis program, you should have the option to do an Image Restore OR to clone the image to a new temporary partition. Once the image is cloned, you can do anything with the files using Windows Explorer. Copy, move, save, whatever, just as if there were two copies of the same disc available.
TI ( or any imager ) takes some getting used to but once you get the hang of it, it's fairly easy. Also, I've found that their tech support group is very good at problem solving or getting answers in a timely fashion.

[BobH]

What version of TI do you have, Bob?
From within the Acronis program, you should have the option to do an Image Restore OR to clone the image to a new temporary partition. Once the image is cloned, you can do anything with the files using Windows Explorer. Copy, move, save, whatever, just as if there were two copies of the same disc available.
TI ( or any imager ) takes some getting used to but once you get the hang of it, it's fairly easy. Also, I've found that their tech support group is very good at problem solving or getting answers in a timely fashion.

I don't recall the version. I did not install it on this system and the other one it was on - a laptop - is no longer functioning. I bought it probably 4 or 5 years ago.

[Rudi]

Could one of you experts explain the difference between a full image backup and other alternatives?

Hi Bob,

Your explanation above about backing up (or cloning) your data into an image and then not being able to restore the files is exactly why I do not use the Image Cloning backup apps. Don't get me wrong...there is nothing wrong with them and they are perfect to clone the entire drive as a backup if needed, but most people simply need to backup their files and do not need an entire clone of their drive. This is where Syncback, FreeFileSync and SyncToy come into play and are far easier to use than Macrium Reflect or Acronis. To answer your question about the difference between all these backup tools...read on...

In essence, there are three main categories of backup apps. The info below is taken from the descriptions of http://www.techsupportalert.com and for a fuller explanation and examples of apps that do these various backups, click the category linked headings below.

- Drive Cloning
With disk imaging software a user can safely recover their computer from a system crash or a bad virus infection without having to worry about reformatting and reinstalling the operating system. With drive imaging there is almost no reason at all to have to re-install Windows because it offers you the ability to restore an image to your hard drive in a fraction of that time and accomplish the same thing while keeping all of your programs and important data.
Most applications offer different options for creating images. You have the option to back up only the used sectors on the disk, which will create an image of only those sectors on the hard disk that are in use by the file system. This option will make the backup much smaller than if you were to create a clone of the drive. A clone is exactly what it sounds like, an exact sector by sector mirror copy of the entire drive including the unused sectors. These images can be saved to an external hard drive, a USB flash drive, a separate partition on your internal hard drive, burned to a CD/DVD for safe keeping, or saved to a network share. Some applications can use image backups as a file backup and mount images to a drive in explorer so individual files can be restored.

- Hard drive backups
File based backup programs do not usually support the creation of a system boot restore disk. The intention behind backup software is to backup important data you create, not generally to restore your operating system or applications. Use backup software to save document files, browser favorites, pictures, videos and other data, documents and media. There are other options for creating system restore disks and restoring applications. Some of the backup programs are easier to use than others usually at the cost of some features.

- File Syncronizing
File synchronization utilities help you keep updated copies of files or folders in two or more locations, such as different computers, network drives, USB drives, or online storage. While a file sync utility could be used as a simple backup tool (called one-way syncing), its real power lies in keeping an identical set of working files in two or more locations.

An example of this would be keeping current versions of the same data files on both your home computer and office computer (two-way syncing). File sync utilities keep track of which files you create or change, or even delete in one location, and can create, change and delete those same files in the other location.

Criteria for the Evaluating a Synchronization Utility:
- A good synchronization utility would have most or all the following features.
- Should support two-way synchronization of files.
- Should be able to replicate any source folder even if the files are in use.
- Should detect conflicts or file collisions. These occur when a file has changed in both locations since the last sync operation. This requires that a database or journal be kept by the utility.
- Should propagate deletions and detect file renames. This also requires a log file of previous operations.
- Should support filters and rules for fine tuning what files are, or are not included in the sync operations.
- Should show a preview of what is going to take place during a sync operation, and allow the user to easily over-ride any actions desired.
- Should have a job scheduler and the ability to automatically detect and launch sync operations when a destination becomes active. (Such as plugging in a USB drive)
- Should support syncing to both local and network locations.

[viking33]

What version of TI do you have, Bob?
From within the Acronis program, you should have the option to do an Image Restore OR to clone the image to a new temporary partition. Once the image is cloned, you can do anything with the files using Windows Explorer. Copy, move, save, whatever, just as if there were two copies of the same disc available.
TI ( or any imager ) takes some getting used to but once you get the hang of it, it's fairly easy. Also, I've found that their tech support group is very good at problem solving or getting answers in a timely fashion.

I don't recall the version. I did not install it on this system and the other one it was on - a laptop - is no longer functioning. I bought it probably 4 or 5 years ago.

So with a copy that was 4 or 5 years old, you created an image using that particular OS that was on the laptop? Vista or XP?
If I recall, you now are running Win7 and that may be the reason why you can't get at the files. I don't think TI will bridge across two different OS.

[BobH]

, both, Rudi and Bob!

Bob: I was running WinXP-SP3 at the time of the death of my HP laptop. I ran WinXP on the old desktop before I rebuilt it into a Win 7 machine. I was unable to recover the data even when I was running XP. I am seriously considering taking it to ACS (because they have a local office) to find out 1) if they can tell whether or not data remains on the drives (2 Passports and the HDD that was in the laptop), and 2) if they can recover it at a reasonable cost.

FWIW: Couldn't I create a WinXP partition and have an alternative boot system? Would that give me access to the image on the Passport HDDs?

Rudi: Is it correct to say that an image is a low level copy of an HDD that includes all the OS components that create a file system? I have never had a good understanding of the term.

[viking33]

, both, Rudi and Bob!

Bob: I was running WinXP-SP3 at the time of the death of my HP laptop. I ran WinXP on the old desktop before I rebuilt it into a Win 7 machine. I was unable to recover the data even when I was running XP. I am seriously considering taking it to ACS (because they have a local office) to find out 1) if they can tell whether or not data remains on the drives (2 Passports and the HDD that was in the laptop), and 2) if they can recover it at a reasonable cost.

FWIW: Couldn't I create a WinXP partition and have an alternative boot system? Would that give me access to the image on the Passport HDDs?

Rudi: Is it correct to say that an image is a low level copy of an HDD that includes all the OS components that create a file system? I have never had a good understanding of the term.

Sure, you could create a dual boot system with Win7 and XP. In fact, that's the setup I currently have but I wouldn't want to try a RESTORE of an image from one to the other. You could try to CLONE the old image with XP in order to retrieve your files. Understand though, that I have never tried to do that operation.
Regarding your question to Rudi, my best analogy to an image is that is an EXACT copy of everything on the disc, not just copies of certain files and data.

[Rudi]

Rudi: Is it correct to say that an image is a low level copy of an HDD that includes all the OS components that create a file system? I have never had a good understanding of the term.

Hi Bob,

When you use drive cloning apps to create an image of your hard drive, the image it creates is an exact replica of your drive at the point of creating the image. IOW: you can use this image to recover a PC to exactly the same state it is was in (if for example it crashed or the OS went haywire...). All OS components, registry files and user files will be restored. Most of these cloning apps will allow you to keep the image updated incrementally so you have the latest changes on your PC stored in the image without having to create a whole new image from scratch.

A BIG advantage of having (and maintaining) and like this is that it will allow you to recover your system in a fraction of the time it would take to manually re-install the OS, the drivers and files...etc...
I wouldn't say these images are a low level copy of the HHD. As a matter of fact it is an exact replica so it would be the highest level of "backup" one can get.

The secondary level of backup would be the Hard Drive Backups. These are backup apps that allow one to create images of a whole filing system (or parts thereof). You create an image of the particular location (like My Documents and all its sub directories; or multiple different directories) and once the image is created, you can maintain it with incremental updates on a regular basis. Although these apps can backup large volumes of files including system files, etc, they are ONLY intended for this purpose. The image it creates cannot be used as a boot drive and cannot recover your system like the cloning apps can.

The third level of backups is the Sync'ing Apps which can mirror (one way sync (incl. delete)), backup (copy one direction (no delete)) and sync (copy both directions). These are of course only intended for user files, but is a very fast and effective way of maintaining files on two different drives (network or external backup drives).

[BobH]

Thanks to both of you, again!

One more (and I hope, last) set of questions, please.

In imaging, does the software (eg, Acronis TI) make an exact copy of the physical HDD - including all the scattered sectors created by the file system and all the unused space from partial sectors? Or. does it perform some partition magic (to coin a phrase, eh?) and clean up the space usage and amend the pointers appropriately, as in defragging operations?

Being an old bit twister - who used to have to manage both RAM and disk space in writing programs (remember I said "old") - my mind runs to these sorts of questions, but alas my knowledge and understanding haven't kept up

[Rudi]

A clone is a direct copy, bit for bit, so that the data stored on the cloned drive is identical to the data on the original drive. From the operating system to the hidden directory files, from your desktop to the device drivers, everything is copied identically. Swap the old drive out for a freshly made clone and there should be no functional difference. You can also use the cloned drive in another PC, and aside from some potential missing drivers due to hardware differences, it should work just like your old system.

So to summarize, the image that the clone app makes is an exact replica of the state of your drive as it is when you cloned it; bad sectors, unused space and all. Most ideal would be to clean up your drive; defrag, clean empty space, get rid of old applications and files, pictures, music you don't, etc, before you make the image (if that is important for you.)

[viking33]

From the help files for TI 2014:
Disk backup (Image)
A backup that contains a sector-based copy of a disk or a partition in packaged form. Normally, only sectors that contain data are copied. Acronis True Image 2014 provides an option to take a raw image, that is, copy all the disk sectors, which enables imaging of unsupported file systems

I don't recall if this also applies to older versions of TI.

[BobH]